Do you believe you die "When it's your time"

[Mattio]

My mum believes that when you die, it's just because it's your time. My aunt is slightly more religious and says it's because God has decided it's your time.



THAT'S BOLLOCKS
If it's not a large mound of hamster ****, then WHY do you punish murderers?

[gggggg]

christians punish murderers? as a habit? ;)

[Mattio]

Originally posted by gggggg
christians punish murderers? as a habit? ;) Yep! Every third Sunday. When the ******* should be in church!

[Mattio]

CENSORSHIP!

:evil::rolleyes:

[Mattio]

This is a genuine question by the way.....

[tiger_rascal]

I believe when we die it was our time.

As for punishing criminals, Im not understanding what that has to do with the original question.

Criminals must be punished, but I do not believe in the death penalty.

[Mattio]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
I believe when we die it was our time.

As for punishing criminals, Im not understanding what that has to do with the original question.

Criminals must be punished, but I do not believe in the death penalty. If you die at a specified time, it's not the fault of the person who killed you, so why punish them?

[tiger_rascal]

Because its not up to the person to take the life of another, only God can do that. I believe its a mix of both. In the case of a murder, the person may not have been ready to go, but God was ready for that person.

I dont think I need to explain why we should not kill people and why people who do get punished.

[gggggg]

Matt is being pedantic... it seems... ;)

murder must be an exception, an extreme form of DEATH...

its a good job God has plenty of space (and bandwidth) for the murder victims...

[Mattio]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
Because its not up to the person to take the life of another, only God can do that. I believe its a mix of both. In the case of a murder, the person may not have been ready to go, but God was ready for that person.

I dont think I need to explain why we should not kill people and why people who do get punished. I'm not sayin explain punishing killers, I'm saying explain the huge and blatant conflict between those two opinions. If god is ready for that person, and "we die when it's our time" then killers are doing god's work.

[tiger_rascal]

If you want to look at it that way.

I just see things a bit differently. ;)

[gggggg]

Originally posted by Mattio
I'm not sayin explain punishing killers, I'm saying explain the huge and blatant conflict between those two opinions. If god is ready for that person, and "we die when it's our time" then killers are doing god's work.

err... i don't actually get that connection!

the only contradiction is the one you're creating yourself by suggesting that all christians believe those two quotes word for word and through the definition that you've provided... religion is interpretation, theres no "fact" involved

[Mattio]

I never said anything about Christianity in general!

Do you believe we die when it's our time? Yes.
Do you believe in punishing murderers? Yes.

These are incongruous.

[gggggg]

well, you're basically talking about fate arent you? anything that happens, happens for some sort of reason... I quite subscribe to this kind of thinking, I must say...

of course we die when its our time, because, er thats when we die ;) ... be that through whatever means...

its ONLY when you bring God into the equation is when you seem to have beef with the theory... it seems to all hinge on whether it was that persons time in "God's eyes"...

I think the real question here is whether God believes in spontaneity...

[tiger_rascal]

If its fate we are talking about, then why wouldnt the murderer be punished, it all happens for a reason.

[butterfly]

OK. I think there's a sensible answer to this one.

I believe that God decides when our time is to pass over into the next life, and this happens in the case of illness, old age etc.

Murder (and manslaughter, and suicide) are different however, because (this is the important bit) we have free will. That's why murder is wrong (and suicide is just as bad), because it's a deliberate taking of a life at a time before that life was meant to end, and that is a deliberate disruption of God's plan for that person.

I don't believe in the death penalty, because I don't believe that a life should be taken for any reason. Which leads to the inevitable question of abortion. I used to believe in "a woman's right to choose" but since I became a Christian, I've found myself siding with the unborn child. I know, it's not going to make me very popular, but there it is.

[bluehorizonx10]

Jesus wasn't very popular either in His days on earth. Lots of things that are right in God's eyes aren't poplular beliefs of the world.........as it should be. We are not of the world, only in it for a short time. Heaven is our home.

[butterfly]

Amen to that, blue horizon!

[Queen Stephanie]

I believe that God knows when it is our time to die. Our lives have been pre ordained by him.

However, he has granted us free will. Those who use it wrongly will commit murders and trangressions of the like. Accordingly, since they choose to play God, the government can end their lives. But I do believe in a woman's right to abort during her first trimester. I don't consider it a child but a growing embryo that can't live separate from the womb.

[gggggg]

so God and the Government are kinda similar? ... I think that works out, I mean, they have two same letters don't they?

[Queen Stephanie]

Originally posted by gggggg
so God and the Government are kinda similar? ... I think that works out, I mean, they have two same letters don't they?

Not quite similar, but the likeness is there.

In this earthly world, the government seemingly has absolute power as it is the governing body. It hands down the necessary judgments. I'm pro-death.

[Julie2]

God knows exactly how many days we each will live on this earth:

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." PSALM 139:16

There are no accidents in God's plan, and no one can do anything to us without God allowing it to happen. However, a murderer is still committing a grievous sin, whether or not God allows it to happen, and that person must live, or die, with the consequences of his/her actions.

[Mattio]

Originally posted by Julie2
God knows exactly how many days we each will live on this earth:

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." PSALM 139:16

There are no accidents in God's plan, and no one can do anything to us without God allowing it to happen. However, a murderer is still committing a grievous sin, whether or not God allows it to happen, and that person must live, or die, with the consequences of his/her actions. There are a couple of statements in this thread that just have me rubbing my eyes in disbelief, but I'll quote this cos it was at the end.


God knows exactly how many days we each will live on this earth:

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." PSALM 139:16

There are no accidents in God's plan
So, god decides how long we live.

So murderers are not at fault, as their victims are 'destined' to die then.

[Julie2]

Originally posted by Mattio
There are a couple of statements in this thread that just have me rubbing my eyes in disbelief, but I'll quote this cos it was at the end.


God knows exactly how many days we each will live on this earth:

"All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." PSALM 139:16

There are no accidents in God's plan
So, god decides how long we live.

So murderers are not at fault, as their victims are 'destined' to die then.

Not exactly. Simply because God knows how long we will live does not negate the fact that murder is a sin. God does not ordain a murderer to commit murder. That is an act freely chosen by the perpetrator. That act has consequences. Knowing in advance that an event will occur does not mean that that is how God wanted it to be. He is ALLOWING it to be, and it could not happen if He were not to allow it, but He doesn't choose for us to murder others.

[Mattio]

But if he decided when the death would occur then it's irrelevant how it occurs.

It's not how he wants it but he allows it? That's just stoopid.

[oldernow]

But if he decided when the death would occur then it's irrelevant how it occurs.

It's not how he wants it but he allows it? That's just stoopid.
God knows the choice you are going to make. God did not decide when the death would occur. he knew that the murderer would choose to kill. God gave us free will if he didn't we would be robots.

[Mattio]

Sadly, believing in god requires blind naivity so I'm unable to see it from your pov. Sorwey.

[pinky]

:rolleyes:

Actually, believing in God only requires an acknowledgement that there are things greater than us, and the humility to accept that.

And the word you're looking for is naivete.

[Mattio]

Actually, the word I chose to use was naivity. At no time was I looking for naivete.

[Leezard]

Guess it'll be hard for anyone to comment since I'm having a hard time finding the definition to naivity...

Now if you're talking about naivety, I'm interested to know what you think Christians are naive about.

[butterfly]

I think some people refuse to believe in God out of blind naivety, maybe because they think it automatically makes them intellectually superior. And "cool". Ask them how the universe got here and they'll say something about the big bang, as if that explains everything.

Of course, not all atheists are like that, but far too many are.

[pinky]

Originally posted by Mattio
Actually, the word I chose to use was naivity. At no time was I looking for naivete. I looked up naivity. Here's the entry from Merriam-Webster Online:

"The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary."

Like I said, you were looking for naivete, or, as an alternate spelling, naivety like Liz said.

If you want to play with the big kids, you'd better learn to spell the hard words.

[pinky]

Originally posted by butterfly
I think some people refuse to believe in God out of blind naivety, maybe because they think it automatically makes them intellectually superior. And "cool". Ask them how the universe got here and they'll say something about the big bang, as if that explains everything.

Of course, not all atheists are like that, but far too many are. Madalyn Murray O'Hare once said that she considered herself intellectually superior to everyone who believes in God.

[butterfly]

Pinky! You are the same Pinky who used to be Ellie when I used to be called Vicky_W, aren't you? That's still my name btw, I just had to re-register.

[Julie2]

Originally posted by pinky
Madalyn Murray O'Hare once said that she considered herself intellectually superior to everyone who believes in God.

Madalyn Murray O'Hare's son became a Christian. :D

[pinky]

Originally posted by butterfly
Pinky! You are the same Pinky who used to be Ellie when I used to be called Vicky_W, aren't you? That's still my name btw, I just had to re-register. No, I've always been pinky in here. There have been a few variations on the name by others, but I've always been the same, and I'm 99.9% sure I was the first, given my registration date!

[smackers]

I don't believe or disbelieve that.

[pinky]

No, it's true! I really HAVE always been pinky! :wink:

[Mattio]

Oh dear! I misspelt a word. How CHRISTIAN of you to ridicule a simple spelling mistake. It's not as if I'm some kind of retard who can't use apostrophes correctly.

Marc, your comment on not believing in god due to naivety is patronising beyond belief! When there is ANY evidence to support any kind of :rolleyes: 'greater being' then maybe I'll change my mind.
As things stand, I will continue to believe that the bible is a contradictory collection of old wives' tales which have been horrendously distorted over thousands of years, and that a more scientific explanation of the world around us (the Big Bang) is infinitely more plausible than one being (conveniently viewed as human-like) controls everything.

It's ridiculous. Many Christian ideals are wonderful, and I support them. But the basis on which they were formed is a lie and a controlling trick formed by rulers and governments to make the peasants feel alternately secure and frightened.

[Leezard]

And that's your right to believe that but just like you don't like being "ridiculed" for a misspelled word, people don't like to be told that what they believe isn't real...I have no problem with someone not agreeing with me but the way you're going about it isn't a very open and I don't have much patience to concern myself with that. I think that you saying Christians are naive is patronising beyond belief, what's the difference between you saying that and someone else saying it about people who don't belive in God?

Have you belief, no one is stopping you, but at least be mature and respectful enough to let others believe what they want to without giving them such a hard time about it. Again, I have no problem with a mature and open debate but your comments don't show someone willing to have an open debate.

[Julie2]

"Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander." 1PETER 3:15-16

[pinky]

Mattio, I would certainly have let your spelling error go by without comment, had you not attempted to establish yourself as superior in intellect and sophistication to those of us who believe in God, which you did by the simple use of a word similar to naivete.

Truly intelligent and sophisticated people actually know the words they use.

Also, you should know that there are many people who believe in both God and the Big Bang. If one allows for the possibility (actually, I think it's more a probability) that the Old Testament is not literal in nature, but rather intended to teach lessons through what had originally been an oral tradition, which was later put into written form, then it's completely logical to accept a scientific explanation of creation.

What science has not yet come close to explaining, however, is what caused the Big Bang, and what put all that material there in the first place.

[AlmostFamous]

Pinky~

Well said. You are my hero.

[Mattio]

I struggle to have a debate about something for which one side has no evidence to put forward!

Moreover, I'm not telling people not to believe, or that they are wrong. I'm voicing my opinions, and, as most others in this thread, suggesting that they are right.

[tiger_rascal]

The "Big Bang" has no more proof than God.

We have had some wonderful discussions on this type of stuff in the past, Im sure we can do it again.

I need no proof of God, I have faith.

[Leezard]

So if your belief is that Christians have no proof then what exactly are you trying to debate?
I struggle to have a debate about something for which one side has no evidence to put forward!
So instead your just trying to show everyone how you are right and they are wrong because a debate is when both sides are open minded to what the other has to say...not when one side is so sure the other is wrong and has no problem saying it over and over instead of taking a moment to listen to what they have to say.

Good for you that you don't belive in God, we know that and you know that and you don't seem to have any intent on being open to any other belief so why not leave it at that?

[Mattio]

I'm listening to what people are saying. The problem is that it tends to be either wonderfully convenient for their purpose, contradictory, random or incoherent.

I'm not showing how I'm right. I'm suggesting that I am. IWANT someone to prove to me that there's a god, an afterlife, something more. Don't you see how comforting that is? That (imo) is exactly how religion came about. I don't think it's any coincidence that all areas of the world have very strong religions which differ wildly.

[Leezard]

Can you prove to me that there isn't a God, an afterlife or something more? Can you prove to me that the complex way the world works-nature, with the moon and stars and sun and planets, the complexities of the human body are just flukes? That they all just "evolved" from nothing with no help from some higher being?

I've read the science books, I took classes that were supposed to convince me that this world was created by some bang...sorry, that just doesn't cut it for me. I do believe that things have evolved but it's hard for me to believe that it just happened and came out of no where.

[Mattio]

No I can't, but I can say that's absolutely no evidence to support any kind of religion.

[pinky]

Nor is there any evidence to support the notion that there is no God, no Prime Mover, no Source.

[oldernow]

I struggle to have a debate about something for which one side has no evidence to put forward!

Moreover, I'm not telling people not to believe, or that they are wrong. I'm voicing my opinions, and, as most others in this thread, suggesting that they are right.
Im having a real problem believing that you came in here to debate or discuss anything. One of your very first posts had to be censored because of the language you chose to use. I might add this was not just one post. Which was meant to insult.

[Queen Stephanie]

I'm a Christian and I put my complete faith in God.

With that said, I do feel the Bible is contradictory. I was made in HIS image. I should not have to be submissive to any Adam's of the world. How sexist! :rolleyes:

Also, how can I turn the other cheek when its the written word to strike against trangressers. But then it is told to forgive.

[Mattio]

I said mf. god created that word.

"I was made in his image". Or at least something of that image evolved from an earlier lifeform anyway.

[tiger_rascal]

Is it really so hard to abbreviate your foul language?

Avoiding the censors is not a good thing on this board. Im very tolerant and give people chances, see to it that you practice better language while on this board. This is the second warning by the way, I think I have rather polite warnings. All I ask is that members control their language, its about respect.

[Mattio]

Who are you to judge what is "better" language?

[tiger_rascal]

Its not for me to judge, its for the TOS to judge, you know, the rules of the board, the ones you agreed to when you signed up.

When you avoid the censors, you are breaking the rules. Its that simple, we can say what language goes and what stays here. Some forums are a little different, and in this forum I would rather not see foul language. Since you are new, I do not mind explaining this to you, its best that you are educated on the matter. I let some language that is not caught by the censors to slide, depending on context I will edit as I see fit.

There are people who post in this forum that are offended at such language, its common courtesy to watch your language.

Thank you for your cooperation and I hope that you enjoy discussing religious matters in a civil manner in this forum in the future.

[LesterX]

Good grief, what exactly is your problem? I'm most definitely not religious, and have no issue with swearing, but you're just trolling. Live Daily is moderated -- that's no secret, and there are clear TOS. Language is censored. If that bothers you, why are you here? Go to an unmoderated board or form your own Yahoo group if you feel your freedom is being infringed upon here. Are you really, really bored or something?

[Mattio]

Originally posted by LesterX
Are you really, really bored or something? FINALLY.

I'll admit :o that's the catalyst behind the whole 'freedom' thing, but where I've discussed war and the bible and science, these are real discussions.

[LesterX]

Aha! I knew that armchair psychology degree would come in handy sometime...

[bluehorizonx10]

I'm not showing how I'm right. I'm suggesting that I am. IWANT someone to prove to me that there's a god, an afterlife, something more. Don't you see how comforting that is? That (imo) is exactly how religion came about. I don't think it's any coincidence that all areas of the world have very strong religions which differ wildly.

You're the second one on this board who insists that we believer's prove to you there is a God and afterlife. We can't do that. It's all on faith. But there is a place in the Bible (Luke 16:20-31) that gives you a clear picture of what hell will be like and how much the man wanted to be out of it, and to warn his brothers and loved ones so they won't go there. There are also many scriptures to tell of Heaven too. That book, the Bible, is enough for me with my faith to show me proof. I have nothing to lose if I'm right, and all to gain. God is our creator, why should He prove anything to us? That's why the whole premise of belief is on faith alone.

[butterfly]

Originally posted by pinky
Also, you should know that there are many people who believe in both God and the Big Bang. If one allows for the possibility (actually, I think it's more a probability) that the Old Testament is not literal in nature, but rather intended to teach lessons through what had originally been an oral tradition, which was later put into written form, then it's completely logical to accept a scientific explanation of creation.

What science has not yet come close to explaining, however, is what caused the Big Bang, and what put all that material there in the first place.

*nods* I'm with you all the way there, pinky.

Btw, I only asked if you were the same pinky I used to know because I thought there might have been a slight variation, and it appears I was right (and so were you). Sorry about the misunderstanding. I'd put an embarrassed smiley here but the smileys here don't seem to work on my computer for some reason. Apart from the winking one, which I found out how to do by accident.

Anyway, I digress. The thing about Mattio is that he and I are part of an influx of new posters (although some of us are also old posters) due to another set of forums closing. That other site, which was quite a civilised place when I joined, had degenerated somewhat in more recent times, and it had become a place where belief in God was frowned upon.

I didn't say that all non-believers were naive, just that some were. I meant that it's naive to think that God will just disappear if you don't believe in Him. I know people who think that if they don't believe in God, it's one less thing to worry about. If that's not a naive way of looking at things, I don't know what is. It's different if people have genuinely thought a lot about the subject and have come to a reasoned conclusion that God doesn't exist, but will still listen to other people's views in case something they hear puts things in a different light for them. That has to be respected.

[young again]

Originally posted by butterfly
[BThe thing about Mattio is that he and I are part of an influx of new posters (although some of us are also old posters) due to another set of forums closing. [/B]

Oh, is THAT the thing about Mattio?! ;)

Seriously, I was wondering where everyone came from all of a sudden.