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young again
Jan 8th, 2004, 08:24 AM
Another New York Times Op-Ed, pertinent to some of the discussions we've had here:

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
One Nation, Under Secularism
By SUSAN JACOBY

Published: January 8, 2004

In Campaign 2004, secularism has become a dirty word. Democrats, particularly Howard Dean, are being warned that they do not have a chance of winning the presidential election unless they adopt a posture of religious "me-tooism" in an effort to convince voters that their politics are grounded in values just as sacred as those proclaimed by President Bush.
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On one level, the impulse to capitalize on the religiosity of Americans can be seen as transparently, and at times comically, opportunistic. Late last year, Ed Kilgore, policy director of the Democratic Leadership Council, earnestly advised his party's candidates to invoke "God's green earth" in supporting stronger environmental laws. Mr. Dean, the candidate stuck with the label (or libel) of being the most secularist Democratic aspirant, seems to be heeding the advice to get religion. He recently informed an Iowa audience that he prays daily, and in New Hampshire last week, he demonstrated his ecumenism by using the Muslim expression "inshallah," which means God willing.

On a deeper level, the notion that elected officials should employ a religious rationale for policy decisions is rooted in the misconception, promulgated by the Christian right, that the American government was founded on divine authority rather than human reason. When I lecture on college campuses, students frequently express surprise at being told that the framers of the Constitution deliberately omitted any mention of God in order to assign supreme governmental power to "We the People."

Dismissing this inconvenient fact, some on the religious right have suggested that divine omnipotence was considered a given in the 1780's — that the framers had no need to acknowledge God in the Constitution because his dominion was as self-evident as the rising and setting of the sun. Yet isn't it absurd to suppose that men as precise in their use of language as Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton and James Madison would absentmindedly have failed to insert God into the nation's founding document? In fact, they represented a majority of citizens who wished not only to free religion from government interference but government from religious interference.

This deep sentiment was expressed in letters to newspapers during the debate over ratification of the Constitution. One Massachusetts correspondent, signing himself "Elihu," summed up the secular case by praising the authors of the Constitution as men who "come to us in the plain language of common sense, and propose to our understanding a system of government, as the invention of mere human wisdom; no deity comes down to dictate it, nor even a God in a dream to propose any part of it."

The 18th-century public's understanding of the Constitution as a secular document can perhaps best be gauged by the reaction of religious conservatives at the time. For example, the Rev. John M. Mason, a fire-breathing New York City minister, denounced the absence of God in the preamble as "an omission which no pretext whatever can palliate." He warned that "we will have every reason to tremble, lest the governor of the universe, who will not be treated with indignity by a people more than individuals, overturn from its foundations the fabric we have been rearing and crush us to atoms in the wreck." But unlike many conservatives today, Mason acknowledged — even as he deplored — the Constitution's uncompromising secularism.

Americans tend to minimize not only the secular convictions of the founders, but also the secularist contribution to later social reform movements. One of the most common misconceptions is that organized religion deserves nearly all of the credit for 19th-century abolitionism and the 20th-century civil rights movement. While religion certainly played a role in both, many people fail to distinguish between personal faith and religious institutions.

Abolitionists like William Lloyd Garrison, editor of The Liberator, and the Quaker Lucretia Mott, also a women's rights crusader, denounced the many mainstream Northern religious leaders who, in the 1830's and 40's, refused to condemn slavery.

In return, Garrison and Mott were castigated as infidels and sometimes as atheists — a common tactic used by those who do not recognize any form of faith but their own. Garrison, strongly influenced by his freethinking predecessor Thomas Paine, observed that one need only be a decent human being — not a believer in the Bible or any creed — to discern the evil of slavery.

During the 20th-century civil rights struggle, the movement's strongest moral leaders emerged from Southern black churches. But the moral message of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. obviously ran counter to the religious rationales for segregation preached in many white churches in the south.

In addition, Dr. King welcomed the help of nonreligious allies like Stanley Levison, his friend and lawyer, and the outspoken labor leader A. Philip Randolph. Michael Schwerner and Andrew Goodman, murdered in Mississippi in the summer of 1964, were nonobservant Jews who died not in the name of religion but because of their secular humanist commitment to racial justice.

Many politicians today, including President Bush, use the civil rights leadership of African-American ministers as an argument in favor of "faith-based" government financing. But those ministers were free to pursue their moral vision within American society precisely because they were independent of both government money and government control. Government officials, by contrast, have a very different constitutionally mandated obligation — to devise public policies based not on religious interests but on a secular concept of public good.

When President Lyndon B. Johnson proposed the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and declared, in his memorable Texas twang, "We shall overcome," he was articulating a moral position that could and did command the respect of citizens of any or no religion.

That is real leadership. Not a scintilla of bravery is required for a candidate, whether Democratic or Republican, to take refuge in religion. But it would take genuine courage to stand up and tell voters that elected officials cannot and should not depend on divine instructions to reconcile the competing interests and passions of human beings.

Abraham Lincoln, whose spiritual beliefs were so elusive that both atheists and the devoutly religious have tried to claim him as their own, spoke eloquently on this point during his long period of deliberation before issuing the Emancipation Proclamation.

"I am approached with the most opposite opinions and advice, and that by religious men, who are equally certain that they represent the divine will," he told a group of ministers in September 1862. "I hope it will not be irreverent for me to say that if it is probable that God would reveal his will to others, on a point so connected with my duty, it might be supposed that he would reveal it directly to me. . . . These are not, however, the days of miracles. . . . I must study the plain, physical facts of the case, ascertain what is possible, and learn what appears to be wise and right."

Today, many voters, of many religious beliefs, might well be receptive to a candidate who forthrightly declares that his vision of social justice will be determined by the "plain, physical facts of the case" on humanity's green and fragile earth. But that would take an inspirational leader who glories in the nation's secular heritage and is not afraid to say so.

Susan Jacoby, author of the forthcoming "Freethinkers: A History of American Secularism," is director of the Center for Inquiry-Metro New York.

bombastical
Jan 8th, 2004, 09:40 AM
I'm turning 18 this year just in time for the elections, and I'm beginning to think that perhaps I shouldn't even bother voting.

Leezard
Jan 8th, 2004, 10:28 AM
Until I turned 18 I always looked forward to voting, now it just seems like such a chore because it never seems that there's anyone worth voting for anymore. It's hard to listen to the candidates and read what they are all about and then to come up with one of them to vote for when they all seem like liars and cheats. Gotta love how our politics work...

bekahbeans
Jan 8th, 2004, 12:08 PM
If you don't vote, I don't want to hear you complaining about the government, dammit! ;)

Slyguy
Jan 8th, 2004, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by bombastical
I'm turning 18 this year just in time for the elections, and I'm beginning to think that perhaps I shouldn't even bother voting. If you're not happy with the choices then make your own choices. Get involved in the government system. Become a lobbyist for an organization that matches your idealogy. Or even run for government. But you should vote anyway. A lot of people your age (oh hell, every age group except retirees) don't care or even know the names of their local leaders.

pinky
Jan 8th, 2004, 01:34 PM
I think this paragraph is critical to a true understanding of the article:
This deep sentiment was expressed in letters to newspapers during the debate over ratification of the Constitution. One Massachusetts correspondent, signing himself "Elihu," summed up the secular case by praising the authors of the Constitution as men who "come to us in the plain language of common sense, and propose to our understanding a system of government, as the invention of mere human wisdom; no deity comes down to dictate it, nor even a God in a dream to propose any part of it."All this means is that government is a human invention. It says nothing at all about the existence of God. It merely states that God has nothing to do with our government system.

Yes, the Founding Fathers were secularist in their beliefs about how to govern. They were also believers in God. They simply didn't see any wisdom in combining the two. God rules our spiritual life; the government rules our legal interactions.

bombastical
Jan 8th, 2004, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Slyguy
If you're not happy with the choices then make your own choices. Get involved in the government system. Become a lobbyist for an organization that matches your idealogy. Or even run for government. But you should vote anyway. A lot of people your age (oh hell, every age group except retirees) don't care or even know the names of their local leaders.

Or I can do as planned and become a journalist. Writing is a wonderful and powerful tool.

bombastical
Jan 8th, 2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by bekahbeans
If you don't vote, I don't want to hear you complaining about the government, dammit! ;)

Oh, I'll be voting.

Steggy
Jan 8th, 2004, 06:38 PM
I'm turning 18 in March and I'm excited about voting Bush in 2004.

As far as secularism goes.. the farther this country goes into it the worse off we will be.

bombastical
Jan 8th, 2004, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Steggy
I'm turning 18 in March and I'm excited about voting Bush in 2004.

As far as secularism goes.. the farther this country goes into it the worse off we will be.

You have got to be kidding me.

Steggy
Jan 8th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by bombastical
You have got to be kidding me.

No actually I'm not. I'd like to live in a country that actually has some differentiation between right and wrong.. which is why I am republican not democratic

Sinister
Jan 8th, 2004, 09:13 PM
^
If I was a Christian I would pray for you.

bombastical
Jan 8th, 2004, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Sinister
^
If I was a Christian I would pray for you.

LOL

Sinister
Jan 8th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by bombastical
LOL

I'm such a smart ass. ;)

bombastical
Jan 8th, 2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Sinister
I'm such a smart ass. ;)

And I love it. :D

Steggy
Jan 8th, 2004, 09:38 PM
I think everyone needs to listen to a lil Aretha.. learn a word

smackers
Jan 9th, 2004, 12:06 AM
As far as secularism goes.. the farther this country goes into it the worse off we will be.

Originally posted by Steggy
No actually I'm not. I'd like to live in a country that actually has some differentiation between right and wrong.. which is why I am republican not democratic

So, unless someone believes in your God, they have no sense of right and wrong, or what?

Sinister
Jan 9th, 2004, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Steggy
I think everyone needs to listen to a lil Aretha.. learn a word


I would tell you what you need, but I digress.

bekahbeans
Jan 9th, 2004, 05:25 AM
That one guy who's running...gah, what's his name...Gephart? Every time I see him I have to really think about who he is because my initial reaction is always that he's Dan Quayle. Is that weird?

DoubleEdgeSword
Jan 9th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Very interesting editorial. Thank you for posting.

Patty, you said something about the farther we go into secularism, the worse off it will be? I think if you really understand this editorial you will see that the country was founded on secular ideas. I think quite the opposite is happening from what you stated. I think many of our politicians, Bush for instance, are moving away from the original secular nature of our Constitution and toward the religious. I believe, as did the founding fathers, that therein lies the danger for this country.

The United States government is for and of "the people," not God.

bekahbeans
Jan 9th, 2004, 05:48 AM
Well do you think there's something wrong with having a president who's religious? I'm not saying that I think that presidential nominees should be religious, but I don't see why it should be a problem if one is, or isn't. What matters is their political views and whether or not you agree with them.

Thus sayeth, me. :D

DoubleEdgeSword
Jan 9th, 2004, 05:56 AM
I don't think there is anything wrong with a president having religious beliefs, but when he uses those beliefs exclusively to make public policy, then I have a problem. His proposal to amend the constitution to deem marriage to be only between a man and a woman is a perfect example.

I won't even get into his publicly stated reasons for waging war on Iraq.

bombastical
Jan 9th, 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
I don't think there is anything wrong with a president having religious beliefs, but when he uses those beliefs exclusively to make public policy, then I have a problem. His proposal to amend the constitution to deem marriage to be only between a man and a woman is a perfect example.

I won't even get into his publicly stated reasons for waging war on Iraq.

Another is the new law passed that prohibits late-term abortions. I would never personally have an abortion, nor do I believe late-term abortions are a good idea, but I think this is merely the first step Bush has taken in an attempt to fully outlaw abortion altogether. And I'm pro-choice.

smackers
Jan 9th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
I don't think there is anything wrong with a president having religious beliefs, but when he uses those beliefs exclusively to make public policy, then I have a problem.

Ditto. Well said.

Steggy
Jan 9th, 2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Very interesting editorial. Thank you for posting.

Patty, you said something about the farther we go into secularism, the worse off it will be? I think if you really understand this editorial you will see that the country was founded on secular ideas. I think quite the opposite is happening from what you stated. I think many of our politicians, Bush for instance, are moving away from the original secular nature of our Constitution and toward the religious. I believe, as did the founding fathers, that therein lies the danger for this country.

The United States government is for and of "the people," not God.

I'm not sayign everyone has to be religious.. but the more secular we become the more we are open the gates for everything to come. I, personally, jsut want to protect the children. i find it disturbing that their are kids under 10 havign sex, and diluting themselves into the adult world. kids are growing up way too fast, and I blame that on society's moral ideals going down hte drain, especially in the media.

Actually this country was founded because of religion, we wanted to be the "city on the hill." Why do you think God is in out pledge, on our money, in our court systems? And even though I do believe in a form of separation of church and state.. you never find any of that in the constitution.

young again
Jan 9th, 2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Steggy
And even though I do believe in a form of separation of church and state.. you never find any of that in the constitution.

:confused:

shining star
Jan 9th, 2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Steggy
and I blame that on society's moral ideals going down hte drain, especially in the media. Why not put the blame on the right people - the PARENTS.

Why do you think God is in out pledge, on our money, in our court systems? God wasn't in the pledge or our money for a very long time and we were just fine.

People who say the country was founded on the 10Cs, I have a question for you: how can this be a Christian nation if we let everyone have freedom of religion? It directly conflicts with commandment 1.

You won't find a lot of things in the Constitution that we all take for granted as our rights. Point? And furthermore, there certainly isn't anything in the Constitution about the Christian god. 'Creator' could mean Invisible Pink Unicorns for all anybody knows.

RossN
Jan 9th, 2004, 04:07 PM
Coming from hideously secular (and rather intolerant) Europe I break into a cold sweat whenever I here about the possible secularisation of America. The world needs someplace to balance the EU!

Do chuid

bombastical
Jan 10th, 2004, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Steggy
Why do you think God is in out pledge, on our money, in our court systems? And even though I do believe in a form of separation of church and state.. you never find any of that in the constitution.

I researched this topic for my senior project. ;) "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in the 50s without permission from the original author.

bombastical
Jan 10th, 2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by shining star
Why not put the blame on the right people - the PARENTS.

God wasn't in the pledge or our money for a very long time and we were just fine.

People who say the country was founded on the 10Cs, I have a question for you: how can this be a Christian nation if we let everyone have freedom of religion? It directly conflicts with commandment 1.

You won't find a lot of things in the Constitution that we all take for granted as our rights. Point? And furthermore, there certainly isn't anything in the Constitution about the Christian god. 'Creator' could mean Invisible Pink Unicorns for all anybody knows.

I couldn't agree more!