Oxymoron heres your challenge. [Archive]

tiger_rascal

Jan 20th, 2004, 01:40 AM

Maybe we need a Christian missionaries thread?

I understand what you are saying Dave. I have only had one experience though with a missionary family. They visited a church I once attended and showed us some video footage of their progress where they lived. I can not remember where, but I do know they had a great impact on the community they moved to. The impression that I got was that they would never abandon their community. They did a lot more than just preach the word of God. And you may be wondering why some of them came back to the states to show us some video footage? Its because there are many churches whose donations go to that missionary to help in their aid for their community. And when I say aid, I dont mean Bibles and anything having to do with Christianity, I mean necessities. The church they helped establish is merely a large tent for shelter where they can help share the word of God to those who are willing to hear. Missionaries are not just about sharing the word of God, but its about helping others, no matter what. Just because a missionary is Christian does not mean they flaunt it and expect some kind of reward from it. That is not what Jesus Christ taught. I understand though that there are some bad people out there and its sad. But just remember that there are some people out there who really want to help, and if their influence is from Jesus Christ, I do not see any wrong in that.

db44

Jan 20th, 2004, 02:16 AM

True, but if you are going to make a point about Christians being percecuted, let's remember there are those who think their mission is more about spreading the "word of God" than to help those in need.

Let us also remember there are the likes of Falwell and Robertson in this country, who refuse to listen to or try to understand the words of the Koran or who disregard those who follow solely the Old Testement. How are they different from the ruling Taliban? Religious zealots in power, telling their minions how all others deserve to die or are responsible for the strife in the world? The differeence is Falwell could never be elected president,otherwise I expect he'd try to push the same kind of laws on the States as Omar had over the Afghans.

bekahbeans

Jan 20th, 2004, 05:35 AM

There are different kinds of missionairies. Most missionaries aren't going around seeking converts, or walking down the streets preaching. I have a lot of people in my family who did missionary work and they didn't go over to other countries with the purpose of finding people to convert. Rather they were just there to help others in already existing churches with already existing members, or to help build new churches. Maybe some people go to the churches just to get things or cuz they're worried that if they don't the help will leave, like Dave said, but I'll guaruntee that a lot of the people go because they truly believe.

db44

Jan 20th, 2004, 05:48 AM

Bekah, did any of your family do work that was for the community in general and not just building or repairing churches?

bekahbeans

Jan 20th, 2004, 08:54 AM

This I don't really know. That's a really good question, I'll have to ask them. There are some missionaries in my family I like, and others I don't. heh.

Leezard

Jan 20th, 2004, 10:03 AM

The man who used to be pastor at my parents church goes to Cuba at least twice a year on mission work. He and his wife, who is also a pastor, get an amazing amount of donations-clothes, toiletries, ect.-from church members and people in the community. I believe they help with the church building thing but they also do things in the community to help out. It's really a great thing they do and I love to see their pictures and hear about it when they get back, it's like they're not just going to save people, which I realize is the ultimate goal, but they really want to help them where they are at.

oldernow

Jan 20th, 2004, 03:24 PM

Once again you have made into something I am not, and continue to tell me how I feel and look at the world. There is persecution out there for all to see you can put it into any package you like.

Julie2

Jan 22nd, 2004, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron

I can see how it would be difficult to feel that people believe to be condemned to hell could be as worthy as one destined for heaven.
And I believe that the understanding which continually places oneself over those who have other beliefs is the one that necessarily leads to hatred and conflict.

Every person ever born is unworthy. We are all equals in that. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is the Christian is forgiven, and not by their own merits, so there is absolutely no reason for any Christian to believe he is better than someone else. If that occurs it is because of sin in that person's life, and it certainly doesn't mean it's true. God gave Christians a command to go out and preach the truth in love. That is our job, and that is any Christian missionary's job. It's not our job to save peoples' souls. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Julie2

Jan 22nd, 2004, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
If it's not by their own merits that one is saved, nor is it the missionaries job to save souls, then it seems to me that prostlytizing is wholly unnecessary. It must, therefore, be for the benefit of the proslytizer than those who are being preached at.

Either human beings have some role in their and others salvation or they don't.

The only role human beings have in salvation is preaching the word of God as He commanded us. Whether or not it falls on deaf ears is up to the Holy Spirit. God doesn't "need" us to help save souls. But it is a privilege to be used by Him in whatever way He wishes.

db44

Jan 22nd, 2004, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by Julie2
Every person ever born is unworthy. We are all equals in that. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is the Christian is forgiven, and not by their own merits, so there is absolutely no reason for any Christian to believe he is better than someone else. If that occurs it is because of sin in that person's life, and it certainly doesn't mean it's true. God gave Christians a command to go out and preach the truth in love. That is our job, and that is any Christian missionary's job. It's not our job to save peoples' souls. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Once again, I'm pre-destined for Hell. :rolleyes:

Julie2

Jan 22nd, 2004, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by db44
Once again, I'm pre-destined for Hell. :rolleyes:

It doesn't have to be that way! :D

db44

Jan 22nd, 2004, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Julie2
It doesn't have to be that way! :D

Are you being serious? And what is the "cure" pray tell?

Julie2

Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by db44
Are you being serious? And what is the "cure" pray tell?

He who has the Son has life.

tiger_rascal

Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:20 PM

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=JOHN%2B14%3A5-7&showfn=on&showxref=on&language=english&version=NIV&x=13&y=10

tiger_rascal

Jan 22nd, 2004, 04:23 PM

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=john+3%3A16

Julie2

Jan 22nd, 2004, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
Are you a Calvinist?

Mmmmmm.......a 4 point Calvinist maybe. Not all 5 points. Though I prefer to think of myself as a Bible believing Christian. But I know what you're asking.

bekahbeans

Jan 22nd, 2004, 08:50 PM

The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that a Christian has chosen to believe that Jesus was the son of God and then accept what they believe He did for us.

Nothing pre-determined about that.

db44

Jan 23rd, 2004, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by Julie2
He who has the Son has life.

Sorry to tell you this, but I don't have the son of God. I am just as much a son of God as any human who has ever been born, and will enjoy the afterlife as much as every other being should.

bekahbeans

Jan 23rd, 2004, 06:12 AM

I'd agree with that, Dave.

Julie2

Jan 31st, 2004, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by oxymoron
There are bible believing Christians who are Arminianist. People who claim to believe the bible often believe different things about it.

Yes, I know. Arminianism is the belief that God has given man the choice to accept Him or reject Him. Like I said, I'm more of a 4 point Calvinist, rather than the more rigid 5 pointers. Both predestination and free will are taught in the Bible, and I know that they work together somehow, but the actual "how", I don't know. What it all comes down to is Who Is Jesus? If you believe that Jesus is God the Son, and that He died in place of you for your sins, and then rose again, and if He is your Lord and Savior then you are a Christian. If you think that there is anything at all that you can do for your own salvation from death in hell, you are not a Christian. Who is Jesus? All else is majoring in the minors. It's good to study those things, but Jesus would not want us to be divided over such things.

Earl Purple

Jan 31st, 2004, 09:33 PM

Julie,

It is exactly that attitude that makes people anti-Christian.

Firstly because to many people, including myself, it is a load of nonsense. The book of Sanhedrin lists people who lost their share in the World to Come and they all did so because of their own sins. And they lost their share even though the Ark of the Covenant was there at the time and the High Priest was performing the Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) service every year - the breaking of the goat's neck was there to get atonement for the nation, but it was not a magic formula.

The Rabbis who wrote the Mishnah were those who were around the same time as Jesus. A Sanhedrin was the head court of law, and even though the death penalty is mentioned in the Old Testament it was rarely carried out (by a Sanhedrin).

Plus it does seem that Christians preach peace and love with one hand and kill with the other. Not only those who are not Christians, but those who follow a different Christian sect than their own. Take Northern Ireland for example.

tiger_rascal

Jan 31st, 2004, 09:54 PM

Christianity, if Im not mistaken, is the religion that believes in Jesus Christ.

No matter what sect of Christianity you believe in, if you believe in Jesus, you are a Christian, if not, you must not be.

bluehorizonx10

Feb 1st, 2004, 06:22 AM

Plus it does seem that Christians preach peace and love with one hand and kill with the other.

Earl, I'm not sure where you're indicating these so called Christian's are, but Christian's are not what you're saying. No Christian I know kills people. Murder is not only breaking the law but a sin against God. Jesus said to live as He did. He was not a murderer. The Father in Heaven gave us a commandment saying "Thou shalt not kill." So if you please, don't make accusations against a group of people you know nothing at all about. I always try to live by the golden rule and do unto others as I'd have them do unto me. And I try my best to be nice to people, especially someone I don't know. But you stepped over the line on that comment.

oldernow

Feb 1st, 2004, 06:37 AM

Amen!^

Julie2

Feb 1st, 2004, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by Earl Purple
Julie,

It is exactly that attitude that makes people anti-Christian.

Firstly because to many people, including myself, it is a load of nonsense. The book of Sanhedrin lists people who lost their share in the World to Come and they all did so because of their own sins. And they lost their share even though the Ark of the Covenant was there at the time and the High Priest was performing the Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement) service every year - the breaking of the goat's neck was there to get atonement for the nation, but it was not a magic formula.

The Rabbis who wrote the Mishnah were those who were around the same time as Jesus. A Sanhedrin was the head court of law, and even though the death penalty is mentioned in the Old Testament it was rarely carried out (by a Sanhedrin).

Plus it does seem that Christians preach peace and love with one hand and kill with the other. Not only those who are not Christians, but those who follow a different Christian sect than their own. Take Northern Ireland for example.

Don't confuse people who CALL themselves Christians or commit atrocious acts in the name of Christianity with those who truly ARE.

The Old Testament people were under the law, but there are so many instances where we see over and over, that the Israelites called upon the name of God for forgiveness, and He was faithful everytime to forgive them. It was never the "sacrifice" that saved them; it was the turning of their hearts back to God. The sacrifice itself symbolized this.

Finally, the Gospel WILL offend. It's meant to. God created the world and everything in it. He makes the rules. Those who turn to Him and seek His forgiveness will experience His blessings, maybe not in this world completely, but in the next. But it's not always easy to do this. In America, we have it pretty good. We pretty much only have to put up with our families thinking we've joined some cult, or people telling us we have the wrong attitudes. But in some places people will be put to death for believing the Gospel, or will watch their family members be tortured, because the Gospel so offends those who are against it. It's a stone to make men stumble, and a rock to make men fall.
"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for Jew, then for the Gentile." Romans 1:16

DoubleEdgeSword

Feb 1st, 2004, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
Earl, I'm not sure where you're indicating these so called Christian's are, but Christian's are not what you're saying. No Christian I know kills people. Murder is not only breaking the law but a sin against God. Jesus said to live as He did. He was not a murderer. The Father in Heaven gave us a commandment saying "Thou shalt not kill." So if you please, don't make accusations against a group of people you know nothing at all about. I always try to live by the golden rule and do unto others as I'd have them do unto me. And I try my best to be nice to people, especially someone I don't know. But you stepped over the line on that comment.

Alright, this issue has been debated over and over.

Can we just agree that there have been murderous atrocities committed by people who call themselves Christians, and that at one time in history, yes, it was with the blessing of Christian churches? On the other hand, there are people who call themselves Christians who would never think of committing such acts and think it is completely against what they believe Christians stand for.

Okay? Deal?

tiger_rascal

Feb 1st, 2004, 09:57 AM

I think we all know there were atrocities committed by so-called Christians at one time in history, and whether or not they had the blessings of a church is not the same as having the blessings of God. The churches were just as corrupt.

Anyone who knows about Jesus knows about Christianity and therefore hopefully can tell the difference between acts committed by non-Christians who say they are "Christians" and Christians.

Earl Purple

Feb 1st, 2004, 09:25 PM

It's not just "at one time in history", it is still happening now, or at least has been very recently. (Northern Ireland being a case in point, where it is "Christians" fighting other "Christians").

Of course you are saying that is not what Christianity is about, and there are also just as many good Muslems who will tell you that Islam is a peaceful religion and that those who are going around killing people, whether they be Israelis or Hindus in India or Christians in Sudan are not true Muslems.

And all of that of course then leads to secularists saying that religion is to blame for all the world's strife (it isn't, hunger for power is).

However, it can be just as threatening or intimidating to tell people that the only way to salvation is through your own religion, and that they are damned unless they convert.

oldernow

Feb 1st, 2004, 09:42 PM

Christians in Ireland who are fighting one another are not practicing Christianity. They may have a lable that they are Christians but they are not Christians. No Christian who believes in Christ and follows what he has taught us will do what they are doing in Ireland. If they believed in Christ ( after all that is where the word Christian comes from) they would know that what they are doing is against the teachings of Christ.

Earl, can you show me where in the Bible that it says for Christians to do such horrible things? The Bible can be used to prove that what they are doing in Ireland is against God. So when you say that all religions claim to be peacful, I would say take a look at the book that is being followed to see if that religion is indeed teaching peace.

I could just as easy turn and say that Israel is still fighting a war that has no end in sight. This to is happening now...

Julie2

Feb 2nd, 2004, 06:41 AM

Originally posted by Earl Purple

However, it can be just as threatening or intimidating to tell people that the only way to salvation is through your own religion, and that they are damned unless they convert.

Our telling you anything shouldn't matter. JESUS said,

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." JOHN 14:6

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life." JOHN3: 14-15

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." JOHN 3:16

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." JOHN 3:18

"I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die." JOHN 11:25

Also:

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." JOHN 3:36

"But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." JOHN 20:31

DoubleEdgeSword

Feb 2nd, 2004, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by Earl Purple
It's not just "at one time in history", it is still happening now, or at least has been very recently. (Northern Ireland being a case in point, where it is "Christians" fighting other "Christians").

Yes, of course you're right. Human beings have always committed and will continue to commit horrible acts in the name of their God.

What some see as terrorism, some see as a holy war. What some see as adhering to God's law, some call persecution.

And it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about whether or not someone is a "true" Christian, Mulsim, or whatever. They believe they are righteous and that's what makes this kind of absolute belief dangerous.

"I am right, you are wrong," NEVER ends peacefully.

young again

Feb 2nd, 2004, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by oldernow
Christians in Ireland who are fighting one another are not practicing Christianity. They may have a lable that they are Christians but they are not Christians. No Christian who believes in Christ and follows what he has taught us will do what they are doing in Ireland. If they believed in Christ ( after all that is where the word Christian comes from) they would know that what they are doing is against the teachings of Christ.

Earl, can you show me where in the Bible that it says for Christians to do such horrible things? The Bible can be used to prove that what they are doing in Ireland is against God. So when you say that all religions claim to be peacful, I would say take a look at the book that is being followed to see if that religion is indeed teaching peace.

I could just as easy turn and say that Israel is still fighting a war that has no end in sight. This to is happening now...

To dismiss those who have committed acts of violence in the name of Christianity throughout history as being "not really Christian" is a cop-out. It is a way to abdicate responsibility for asking, as a community, what is it about Christianity that is so easily misunderstood/corrupted/whatever to lead to so much violence over so much of its history, and for working to avoid it in the future.

In the case of Israel, if you really want to make that comparison, I think you will find that there has been a healthy debate within Israel and throughout the Jewish community as a whole regarding when and how to use its military force, and that it has generally been quite restrained given the challenges it has been faced with.

You say to go back to the book that is being followed to see if the religion teaches peace. I think you should look at history to see if the religion promotes peace through the actions of its adherents, and what the response is of the religious community as a whole when it fails to do so.

young again

Feb 2nd, 2004, 07:38 AM

double post, my mistake

oldernow

Feb 2nd, 2004, 09:14 AM

To dismiss those who have committed acts of violence in the name of Christianity throughout history as being "not really Christian" is a cop-out. It is a way to abdicate responsibility for asking, as a community, what is it about Christianity that is so easily misunderstood/corrupted/whatever to lead to so much violence over so much of its history, and for working to avoid it in the future.

It is not a cop out. I know what being a Christian is, and it is not what they are doing in Ireland, or any time in history where there is atrocities.

As you know I am on the side of Israel.

I am disgusted with being labled as part of a violent religion. Earl once again is pointing the finger at just the history of Christianity as being violent. Every single religion , everyone has had the bad, religious wars are constantly being fought.
The difference is that I can say with total sincerety that what is taught within my Bible about christianity is not what the crusades did, or any violence that has been done in the name of being a Christian. You can feel it is a cop out all you want, but I take my belief in God very seriously, and i take responsibility for my actions and if my actions are to say blow up abortion clinics in the name of God, than I am no Christian..

Being born into a Christian family does not make you a christian if you do not practice your Christian faith. The same goes for any religion.

DoubleEdgeSword

Feb 2nd, 2004, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by oldernow

I am disgusted with being labled as part of a violent religion. Earl once again is pointing the finger at just the history of Christianity as being violent. Every single religion , everyone has had the bad, religious wars are constantly being fought.

You may be disgusted, but that doesn't change the fact that your religion has a history of violence.

And if you are correct, and every religion has a history of warfare, whether they be the agressors or the victims, it really makes me wonder what's so terrific about absolutist thinking that is the cornerstone of so many organized religions. I seems to me if we did more accepting of other's beliefs, then there wouldn't be so much violence and killing.

young again

Feb 2nd, 2004, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by oldernow
You can feel it is a cop out all you want, but I take my belief in God very seriously, and i take responsibility for my actions and if my actions are to say blow up abortion clinics in the name of God, than I am no Christian..

I guess my feeling about it is that it is not enough to be responsible only for one's own actions on a personal level but on a community level as well. Everyone here is disowning the so-called Christians who commit acts of violence in the name of their religious beliefs, but I don't see anyone talking about what nonviolent Christians are doing to prevent those sorts of abuses.

Julie2

Feb 2nd, 2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by young again
I guess my feeling about it is that it is not enough to be responsible only for one's own actions on a personal level but on a community level as well. Everyone here is disowning the so-called Christians who commit acts of violence in the name of their religious beliefs, but I don't see anyone talking about what nonviolent Christians are doing to prevent those sorts of abuses.

You can't be serious. Are you unaware of the number of Christians who hid Jews during the reign of Nazi Germany? Or the Christian organizations who go into the Third World countries to offer food, clothing, medicines, and to spread the Good News? In my church alone, we have groups of people who visit on a regular basis at group homes for children whose parents either can't or don't want to take care of them, and play games, make meals, do crafts, give gifts, financial support, whatever they need, just to show them someone cares. More groups go to a retirement home and spend every Saturday playing games, having sing-alongs, talking, with the residents. Our youth groups have gone to Peru, South Los Angeles, Czechoslovakia, Mexico, reservations in Minnesota, several times a year to help where they can. A big group of women in my church work for Crisis Pregnancy Centers and Teen Moms to offer alternatives to abortion, or a shoulder to cry on after the abortion takes place. We support and send out people to build homes for Habitat for Humanity. The problem is, violence makes news, and so that's all we hear about when we read the papers and turn on the TVs. But that doesn't mean that there aren't countless others out there doing the work of Jesus the way He would do it.

young again

Feb 2nd, 2004, 10:27 AM

Whoa, I'd better clarify,

First of all, I'm not saying that all Christians are violent, or that the majority are violent, or that Christians as a whole don't do good deeds that benefit others. I have absolutely no doubt that most Christians engage in charitable or other good works.

The issue I am raising is whether Christians have a responsibility to look at their past history and at contemporary abuses and make some effort to prevent that sort of thing. Maybe it would be easier to understand if I asked, do you think that peace-loving, moderate Muslims have a responsibility individually and as a community to publically deplore suicide bombings, and to work to be sure that their religion is not abused by extremists? I think they do. I would guess from the reactions of most of the Christians here that you think they don't, that all they need to do is say, well those suicide bombers aren't REALLY Muslims and leave it at that.

tiger_rascal

Feb 2nd, 2004, 10:38 AM

Oh, ok, I see what you are saying young again.

I do that with supposed Christians.

I think one problem here is that this is a message board and we dont all keep up-to-the-minute details on our life.

By calling those people out though who say they are Christian and clearly do not practice the teachings of Jesus Christ, we are helping the community in one way.

Julie2

Feb 2nd, 2004, 11:13 AM

I'm not much liking my previous answer, and so I'd like to try again. Our example should always be Jesus Christ. Whenever we look to other people, even those we might deem as very godly (Billy Graham, for instance, who really disappointed me when I heard the tapes of himself with Richard Nixon about Jews), they will always disappoint us. Even the most "pious" Christian still sins. And so yes, we can look to the history of the people, and see the many mistakes they've made (that's a lot of what the Old Testament is about!), and seek to try to make sure that doesn't happen again. But we have to keep our focus and our eyes on HIM for our example. I guarantee you, if more people did that, the world would not be anywhere near as a hostile and violent a place as it is, and if EVERYONE did that, we'd be in heaven!

This is what Jesus has to say about violence:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if somone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." MATTHEW 5:38-42

Julie2

Feb 2nd, 2004, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron

As you yourself admit, nobody is perfect in their following. So who determines the line which constitutes acceptable violations of Christianity vs ones that are really ok? And who is it that determines the original standard anyway. After all, you have printed Jesus words above. Some Christians take that as a reason to condemn the death penalty; others do not. Who determines which is right?

There are no "acceptable violations". Jesus determines the original standard, and the rest of us fall very far from it. It's only by God's grace and mercy (Jesus, who is God, dying on the cross for our sins) that any of us have any hope at all. If it were not for Jesus we would all go to hell.

I'm not going to argue for or against the death penalty at this point because I have never made a decision either way where that is concerned. At this time, capital punishment is the law of the land, and its practice is allowed. Apparently our lawmakers and judges, some of whom were appointed, and some of whom were voted in, determined that. :)

Julie2

Feb 2nd, 2004, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron

Those who attempt to make a claim on Jesus for their own view of Christianity are attempting to exercise their own authority over others. This, in fact, does not ask others to follow Jesus. It asks others to follow an interpretation of Jesus. This is both the attitude of the Catholic Church and of OlderNow.

I can only speak for myself, but this is not true of me. If I could have things the way I want them, my entire family would be going to heaven one day. As it stands right now, most of them do not know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and, if they were to die in that state, they would spend eternity in hell. However much I would like to change things around so that people I see as mostly good would go to heaven, I have to let God be God, and live with His rules, knowing that he works for the good of those who love him.

oldernow

Feb 2nd, 2004, 03:15 PM

Moreover, you and most Christians consistently follow this pattern. That is, inserting your own understanding of Jesus for Jesus himself. This is an attempt by you to speak for Jesus. You are confusing your personal understanding of Jesus with Jesus himself. The two are not the same.
I cant help but say that you also consistently follow the same pattern in every discussion. I am not going to respond to any of your posts especially from someone who continues to accuse me of being or feeling a certain way when I indeed dont .

Julie2

Feb 2nd, 2004, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
You misunderstood my point. It was not a matter of changing around rules. It is a matter of determining between interpretations of rules. Now, you claim that Jesus is the ultimate arbiter. But you do not abide by that statement. That is because YOU claim that Jesus is the ultimate arbiter. That is not allowing Jesus to be the ultimate arbiter, but privileging your claim as to determining the scope and authority of Jesus.

Moreover, you and most Christians consistently follow this pattern. That is, inserting your own understanding of Jesus for Jesus himself. This is an attempt by you to speak for Jesus. You are confusing your personal understanding of Jesus with Jesus himself. The two are not the same.

Whether or not I claim that Jesus is the ultimate arbiter is neither here nor there. God's truth is not determined by my beliefs.

Julie2

Feb 2nd, 2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
If all is ultimately determined by Jesus, then anything you have to say is really meaningless. After all, Jesus is the decision-maker here. And since you are an imperfect and infallible human being, that which you have to say about Jesus is necessarily imperfect...therefore mistaken. In fact, you may even be mistaken about the very fact that all is determined by Jesus in the first place.

After all, if all is determined by Jesus, then Jesus can determine not to determine anything anymore...and Jesus would not have to tell you or anyone else. You claim to leave all in the hands of Jesus, but you are actually trying to control and define Jesus so that you can understand Him. That is understandable...but inconsistent with your initial claim.

I'm not into logic games the way that you seem to be. Your first statement in this response is correct, but God gave us his written word to follow, and it is a privilege for me to quote it. Anything that I am the author of is meaningless because I don't have the power to save souls, but Jesus does, and His words are NOT meaningless, even when spoken by me.

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17

Earl Purple

Feb 2nd, 2004, 08:02 PM

Sorry but I do not follow the words of John, Matthew or Timothy, and do not find any divinity whatsoever within those books, so why should I have to go along with what those people say?

Julie2

Feb 6th, 2004, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
That is YOUR belief.

If something is true, it doesn't matter who believes it or who doesn't believe it. It's still true. You're correct that I do believe it, and therefore it is my belief, but even if I didn't believe it, it would be true nevertheless.

One day every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Julie2

Feb 6th, 2004, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
Once again these are your beliefs. But, you are claiming yourself as the determinant that 1) God gave us his written word to follow 2) All scripture is God-breathed.

Perhaps, I disagree with the above. That disagreement is not one between God and myself. It is a disagreement between ME and YOU. I do not claim I am right. But neither do I accept that you are necessarily right. This is a matter of human understanding...not objective truth.

And so in speaking the above on behalf of God, I guess that I too am condemned to Hell.

That is not a logic game. That is trying to eliminate authoritarianism or the attempt by one human being to represent their own claims on truth as truth itself and thus lord themselves over others.

If you disagree with any of the above, I will tell you that I--as posessing superior knowledge and understanding of God than you--am completely right. In fact, God told me yesterday that He has decided to send to Hell those who would make claims on his behalf. He greatly resents when people speak about what he has done. He finds this to be an attempt to limit and control his freedom.

You may believe whatever you like. There is absolute truth, and it existed before I was born. It didn't need me to post it on a message board to make it true. One day everyone will know the truth, but for some, it will be too late. For those who humble themselves before God, and earnestly seek Him, He will be found.

Hebrews 11: 6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

DoubleEdgeSword

Feb 6th, 2004, 06:38 PM

That's really scary to me. That people think they have an exclusive fix on "the truth..." The attitude it takes for one to believe that, to be able to dismiss any other idea which conflicts with it, throws logic completely out of the window. I understand faith needs no logical proof, but to claim faith and "THE truth" are one and the same...

Truth is supported by facts, by proof. Faith does not need either. Faith and truth cannot be the same thing. You may believe a thing, have faith in a thing that it is true, but that does not make it so.

oldernow

Feb 7th, 2004, 08:24 PM

God is the Truth. God is not just a belief.
We accept the evidence of God and
therefore we believe. You dont acccept that God is true and so you dont believe.

oldernow

Feb 7th, 2004, 08:34 PM

And when people claim to speak for God they are attempting to exercise their authority over others.

It was God who told the Prophets to speak for him to the people.It is God who has told us to go and tell all the nations about him.........We are to spread the word my friend Yes tell them about God It is through us that God works. Dont believe it? Then dont. ..
Truth is out there for anyone who wants it.

oldernow

Feb 7th, 2004, 08:41 PM

You make many absolute statements. Funny coming from one who has said that there is no truth. (which is an absolute statement in itself.)

DoubleEdgeSword

Feb 7th, 2004, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
I agree with what you say except that in the philosophy of pragmatism truth is actually determined by belief.

Newtonian physics is a good example of this. For a time, everybody believed Newtonian physics to be the true explanation of the laws of the universe. It was, after, all based on facts. After Einstein's theory of relativity, however, Newtonian physics are not considered false, but are not be considered to be as true as relativity. Note here that the determinant of truth is not the facts themselves but idetermioned by the consideration of human beings. It is when we decided that Einstein's explanation was more satisfactory that it became "true" (at least for the time being). In other words, we determine truth...not facts nor God.

Similarly, one could believe that they understand God based on "facts" of the bible. But later on, those facts may not change but human understanding may. Thus, what they thought was true about God may end up being a poor explanation. This, in my view, is a reason to be cautious when attempting to speak about what is or is not true of God.

As such, Julie's claim to truth about God could be seen as making it true...but only for her. When she attempts to extend that claim to somebody whose mind is not similarly disposed then she is attempting to become the one to define Truth. Since she seems to believe that is actually God, I claim that she is usurping God.

Yes, I agree. That is what I was trying to say. You said it better though. We replace one "truth" with another when circumstances change. Science is a great example. As for the Bible, we don't treat women as property anymore, not because the Bible changed, but because society changed, and thus our beliefs.

oldernow

Feb 7th, 2004, 10:55 PM

Although women were treated in history in an inferior way, this does not mean that those who did so were obeying the commands of Scripture.

DoubleEdgeSword

Feb 7th, 2004, 11:33 PM

Tell that to Susan B. Anthony. Preachers criticized her from the pulpit. She got used to hearing the Bible used as a weapon against women’s rights. She once complained about her least favorite text in the scripture. She said,

“‘Let your women keep silence in the churches’ That was the text that was hurled at our heads. Before giving a lecture I have known every minister in the town to denounce us from the pulpit before hand calling us infidels, because they said our speaking in public was a direct opposition to Saint Paul’s teaching. As a rule, on the night of the lecture (for women’s suffrage), the ministers arranged for prayer meetings, and made women to feel that their soul’s salvation depended on attending the (prayer) meeting.”

katiekat

Feb 14th, 2004, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by Steggy
Yes my mom is a missionary, and it is extremely extremely dangerous for her to be doign this. So dangerous that we aren't allowed to same where or when she is going, because if they were to be foudn as missionaries by the gov't.. they could be put to death, or something else very serious.

It's a dangerous line of work, but completely worth it.

Oh wow. Do you get to see/hear from her often? My aunt went to Russia for missonary work. My church has a relationship with churches in Liberia. I also totally agree with you. It will all be worth it in the end.

DoubleEdgeSword

Feb 16th, 2004, 08:59 PM

oxymoron! good to see your uhm, screen name again. I've missed you. :)

shining star

Feb 18th, 2004, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
Earl, I'm not sure where you're indicating these so called Christian's are, but Christian's are not what you're saying. No Christian I know kills people. Murder is not only breaking the law but a sin against God. But aren't all sins the same to God?

If it's the same, then someone who sins is not a Christian. But then the Bible says that everyone sins.

I'm confused.

tiger_rascal

Feb 18th, 2004, 05:03 AM

Anyone who professes to be a Christian should meet a certain criteria. When a person accepts Jesus Christ they are to repent for their sins, which means to turn away from it, to try your best never to sin again, which is very hard to do.

A person can not simply say to themselves, I can kill this person because Im a Christian and all sins are forgiven. Sure, all sins are forgiven, but if you truly repented you would not have committed the sin, that is why some people question whether that person was a Christian to begin with or not, because if so that person would not have even thought about committing such an act of sin and crime.

Christianity is not a ticket out of ignorance and irresponsibility. We as Christians should be holding each other up and making it known when one falls and try to help them. I will not excuse someone who purposely commits a heinous crime. You can tell a lot about someone from their actions. I suppose its hard for some people to know how a Christian should act if they have not read the Bible.

bluehorizonx10

Feb 18th, 2004, 05:21 AM

Christianity is not a ticket out of ignorance and irresponsibility. We as Christians should be holding each other up and making it known when one falls and try to help them. I will not excuse someone who purposely commits a heinous crime. You can tell a lot about someone from their actions. I suppose its hard for some people to know how a Christian should act if they have not read the Bible.

Amen!

dramaqueen

Mar 21st, 2004, 08:25 PM

The thing I am coming to realize in listening to everyone's view points is this:
The more a person tries to insist that Christianity is "THE" way to go, the more people are put off by it. I understand the aim but if that is not what is happening then that seems counterproductive to me.

Christian-You can agrue until your voice goes hoarse about all the Truth you have found and how great it is-but you can not make someone believe you if they do not want to. The more you try to argue about it, the less desireable you make it appear to others.

It seems futile to me that people will quote scripture as support for their argument when addressing a non-Christian. If the person belived in the scripture's truth in the first place-there would be no discussion.
It seems equally futile to me that a non-Christian would refute scriptue on the basis that it defies logic. Well..YEAH that is what faith is often times. Something that defies logic.

I believe that no person can defend or claim to have the absolute truth. Whatever truth we hold is just that, the truth we hold. It is true for the individual.
If we are Christian we believe that we are following an absolute truth but we can not PROVE it concretely-even to ourselves- which is why it is taken on faith.
IMHO, if a Christian truly wants to demonstrate and spread the love and message (wait...aren't they kinda supposed to be the same?) of their God then they will live their life in the way prescribed the THEM in THEIR book and be joyful when someone inquires about WHY. Because, if they can't see Jesus in you-the words are futile.
As the old saying goes...
Preach the Gospel. Use words if necessary. :D

oldernow

Mar 21st, 2004, 10:39 PM

Christian-You can agrue until your voice goes hoarse about all the Truth you have found and how great it is-but you can not make someone believe you if they do not want to. The more you try to argue about it, the less desireable you make it appear to others.

I dont think that any of us are trying to convert anyone. Nor are we forcing others to believe as we do.

Christian-You can agrue until your voice goes hoarse about all the Truth you have found and how great it is-but you can not make someone believe you if they do not want to. The more you try to argue about it, the less desireable you make it appear to others.

This topic is a bit old, and was originally posted to answer another poster's request. I dont see anyone arguing here. There are comments being made, and we are responding.

It seems futile to me that people will quote scripture as support for their argument when addressing a non-Christian. If the person belived in the scripture's truth in the first place-there would be no discussion.
It seems equally futile to me that a non-Christian would refute scriptue on the basis that it defies logic. Well..YEAH that is what faith is often times. Something that defies logic.
Disagree.
We are often accused of not being the right kind of Christians, and sometimes using scripture is necessary.
I would post scriptures that support using scriptures with un-believers but right now i am tired and in need of sleep.

Julie2

Mar 22nd, 2004, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by dramaqueen
The thing I am coming to realize in listening to everyone's view points is this:
The more a person tries to insist that Christianity is "THE" way to go, the more people are put off by it. I understand the aim but if that is not what is happening then that seems counterproductive to me.

Christian-You can agrue until your voice goes hoarse about all the Truth you have found and how great it is-but you can not make someone believe you if they do not want to. The more you try to argue about it, the less desireable you make it appear to others.

In our everyday lives I absolutely believe that actions speak louder than words, but that's a little hard to achieve in an internet forum. What you've said about Christians arguing is true for non-believers as well.

Having said that, I am never going to change anyone's heart. That can only be done by the Holy Spirit, and Oxymoron can challenge that all he wants, but if God decides he's going to see the light, there isn't anything he can do about it. Look at what happened to Paul.

Jesus gave us a job to do--to be faithful and preach the truth in love. That he wants to use us at all is amazing, but completely unnecessary. He doesn't need us to change anyone's heart.

Julie2

Mar 22nd, 2004, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by oxymoron
Well, speaking as a non-Christian, I will say that Drama Queen's way is much more effective at making me respect and appreciate Christianity.

That's nice, but you having respect and appreciation for Christianity isn't going to mean anything when you come face to face with the Father and your sins aren't covered by the blood of Jesus.

dramaqueen

Mar 22nd, 2004, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Julie2
That's nice, but you having respect and appreciation for Christianity isn't going to mean anything when you come face to face with the Father and your sins aren't covered by the blood of Jesus.

You know I had read your other post and I was about to respond with:"that is exactly whay I was trying to say"

However, then I read this post quoted above and this is exactly the thing I was trying to say "Doesn't help"

Whether that statement is true or false really does depend on what you believe. When you are on the believing side that makes sense. If you are a not a believer then it just sounds judgemental and not based on logic but faith-which if you are not coming from that place then the point is missed. Not to mention might put some people off.

dramaqueen

Mar 22nd, 2004, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by oldernow
I dont think that any of us are trying to convert anyone. Nor are we forcing others to believe as we do.
No, but it does seem that rather than trying to present facts and SHARE ideas it ends up in a black/white, discussion. And generally, I find it to be more of an apples/oranges type thing. That was my point.

This topic is a bit old, and was originally posted to answer another poster's request. I dont see anyone arguing here. There are comments being made, and we are responding.
Clarification:I used the word argue as in debate. Not as in fighting.

Disagree.
We are often accused of not being the right kind of Christians, and sometimes using scripture is necessary.
I would post scriptures that support using scriptures with un-believers but right now i am tired and in need of sleep.
Thing is, who is doing the accusing makes the difference as to what kind of evidence is used. I never said that using the scriptures to defend one's beliefs is wrong. It is just a bit counterproductive to use it with a non-believer is my point.

I think the sum total of what I was getting at is that Christianity is a wonderful thing to the Christian. However, it often stirs up lot of negativity for the Non-Christian. I have seen reasons time and time again pointing out how Christians have committed atrocities in the name of religion (yes, I know they don't have the corner on
the market) and that is the image many people have of Christians.

In order to understand that PEOPLE are a part of any religion and very often bring their own agenda to it all we have to do is to look at history. What I am saying is that Christians could help the "public image" and the common good by focusing on common ground and building people up rather than pointing out how wrong or different they are. and if the threat of going to hell didn't make a person a Christian in the first place, reiterating it most certainly will not. I mean after all, if you don't believe in heaven or hell...there is no threat.
When Jesus spoke to Gentiles, he did not focus on the Scriptures mainly since it would have been foreign to them or not the standard that they chose to adhere to. He directed his message to his audience. That is the basic point I was trying to make, in an albeit roundabout way.

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 22nd, 2004, 02:40 PM

I agree with everything you've written, dramaqueen. As a non-Christian, I'm very definitely put off when Christians start preaching at me. Julie's post about the blood of Jesus? Yeah, that's really offensive. I mean, okay if that's your belief, but don't lay that stuff on me, you know? If Christians sincerely want to spread the word, that is NOT the way to do it.

I'm interested in the bible. I ask questions. I like to debate certain things. Some of the people here will answer questions, debate without resorting to the preaching. I like that. When someone starts telling me I'll go to hell? Nuh uh. NO thanks.

oldernow

Mar 22nd, 2004, 05:23 PM

I appreciate your input Drama queen, and I agree with you about our actions.
Having said that, I dont think you really know us or how and why we approach
things the way we do.

I mean after all, if you don't believe in heaven or hell...there is no threat.

What if a non- believer asks you this question.
"Does the Bible really say that unbeliever's do not go to heaven?
What would you say? Would you tell them what the Bible says, or not
tell them so you dont offend them?

As a Christian, if I felt the need to correct another poster I would do it in private and not in an open forum. That would be the Christian thing to do.

What I am saying is that Christians could help the "public image" and the common good by focusing on common ground and building people up rather than pointing out how wrong or different they are.
You dont want to correct those who dont believe but you dont mind correcting the Christian? If the Christian public image was a serious concern of yours you would'nt be tearing down your Christian Brother.

young again

Mar 22nd, 2004, 05:56 PM

tiger_rascal

Mar 22nd, 2004, 06:16 PM

Good point Patty. And as you know, I expect to be corrected publically.

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 22nd, 2004, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by Julie2
...Oxymoron can challenge that all he wants, but if God decides he's going to see the light, there isn't anything he can do about it.

lmfao! They literally made me laugh out loud! :D

dramaqueen

Mar 22nd, 2004, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by oldernow
I appreciate your input Drama queen, and I agree with you about our actions.
Having said that, I dont think you really know us or how and why we approach
things the way we do.

I am not sure where or when I claimed to know you. I think the same could be said for me that no one here really knows me or how or why I approach things the way I do. Isn't that true for every one of us on this board since it is not face to face interaction? How is that possible in a forum like this anyway? I only respond to what I read. I don't make any claims to know people or their motivations.

What if a non- believer asks you this question.
"Does the Bible really say that unbeliever's do not go to heaven?
What would you say? Would you tell them what the Bible says, or not tell them so you dont offend them?
That is a great question! I am glad you asked. If a non-believer asked ME, personally what the Bible said I would be more than happy to tell them. (Although, I have not seen anything along those lines here as of yet)
What I would not do is try to impose that upon them. I am called to the truth. Nothing more nothing less. I live it in my life and am prepared to explain what I believe and why.
I can't change a person's mind, all I can do is explain my belief and why I hold it. As far as I know, that is all I have been doing here.
I think the problem is that you have mistaken my comments as indended to be criticism and it demonstrates a lack of faith. I in no way mean it as an attack on either side. It was simply my observation.

As a Christian, if I felt the need to correct another poster I would do it in private and not in an open forum. That would be the Christian thing to do.
Why? I did not feel I was correcting anyone. I was stating what I believed. I can not impose my belief on a non-believer and I can't impose my belief on a Christian either. It isn't like all Christians agree on doctrinal issues. I have nothing to hide, nor do I feel I am directing my comments at any particular person here, so I am not sure why I would need to state my comments in private. And to whom would I direct them if they are not for any one person?

You dont want to correct those who dont believe but you dont mind correcting the Christian? If the Christian public image was a serious concern of yours you wouldn't be tearing down your Christian Brother.

Well, first of all I think that every person is my brother, not just the Christian people. I was not correcting anyone. Everyone is free to think as they like and free to post as they like. I didn't make any derogatory remarks about anyone.
And for me to "correct" some one it would mean that I believed they were wrong. I simple made an observation.
Here is what I said:
I never said that using the scriptures to defend one's beliefs is wrong. It is just a bit counterproductive to use it with a non-believer is my point.

I am confused as to why you feel I am correcting and attacking people. All I am trying to do, and have ever been trying to do is to get people to try to see things from another perspective.
If I have offended someone personally I should HOPE they would address me (in private or in public) so that I could try to make things right. However, I will never apologize for my faith or for my belief and neither will I assume eveyone shares it. If that makes me a bad Christian, then I suppose I am guilty as charged.

tiger_rascal

Mar 22nd, 2004, 08:07 PM

tiger_rascal

Mar 22nd, 2004, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
To ask all Christians to act in uniform manner is precisely asking them to evade responsibility.

To ask all Christians to act as Jesus would want them to would be acting like a Christian.

bluehorizonx10

Mar 22nd, 2004, 08:27 PM

This reminds me of a time when I was on another message board. A non-believer wanted me to explain my faith, without using the Bible. Of course, I can not do that. Basically, he was sick of Christians using scriptures from the Bible to explain their belief.

If Christians can not use scriptures from the Bible to defend our belief, what can we do? Not say anything at all? Most of what I have witnessed are Christians being asked about our belief, and when we tell it we are often criticized for it. The few times I have seen people publically approached, including myself, it was in a very respectful manner, asking if we would like to hear about Jesus.

Exactly Chad!

I think the sum total of what I was getting at is that Christianity is a wonderful thing to the Christian. However, it often stirs up lot of negativity for the Non-Christian.

The Bible says to share the good news. How can we share it without repeating the gospel scripture?

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 22nd, 2004, 08:33 PM

bluehorizonx10

Mar 22nd, 2004, 08:50 PM

I really don't think I've ever stated scripture in defense of it, but only in sharing the Word of God. The Word of the Almighty God needs no defense. I honestly don't think I've ever hit anyone over the head with anything.........but if you feel I have, then I apologize.

oldernow

Mar 22nd, 2004, 09:04 PM

It's in the way you present it. Why do you feel you must defend your belief instead of just stating it? In fact, why do you feel you must hit a nonbeliever over the head with it? It's a real turn-off.
We get asked questions, and we answer them. How is that hitting one over the head with it? I have yet to see any of us go to you or anyone else, and preach to you about God. As for us defending our faith. Wouldnt you agree that we are told constantly that our beliefs are outdated, unjust, interpreted wrong, and is ilogical?

tiger_rascal

Mar 22nd, 2004, 09:04 PM

Thats the problem, Christians are often falsely accused of "beating people over the head" or "forcing their belief down peoples throats", even when simply stating their belief.

Perhaps its not the way Christians present their belief, but how some people want to take it?

It works both ways. There are obviously problems in communication between both parties.

oldernow

Mar 22nd, 2004, 10:45 PM

Jesus' brand of Christianity wasn't excepted either. Rembember they crucified him because of it. You accept the brand of Christianity that fit's into your views.

oldernow

Mar 22nd, 2004, 10:53 PM

Basically, acting as Jesus would want them to merely invites each Christian to act as they would like to think that they would like Jesus to like them to act. In other words, do whatever the hell you want and justify it by invoking the name of Jesus.

Another wonderful, and thoughtful statement.

tiger_rascal

Mar 22nd, 2004, 11:01 PM

I suppose some are willing to ignore the words of Jesus.

I see now.

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 23rd, 2004, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by oxymoron

Clearly, we have seen two dramatically different interpretations of Christianity expressed on this board. From my admittedly uneducated view, Drama Queen, Pinky, Merry Sunshine , and Bekah you do Christianity proud.

I agree wholeheartedly, oxymoron. They get their message across without resorting to claims of personal divinity. There is speaking "about God" and there is speaking "for God." These posters fall into the first catagory. I appreciate thier posts.

oldernow

Mar 23rd, 2004, 07:14 AM

I agree wholeheartedly, oxymoron. They get their message across without resorting to claims of personal divinity. There is speaking "about God" and there is speaking "for God." These posters fall into the first catagory. I appreciate thier posts.
I do not want to speak for Merry, and if I am out of line i do appologize to Merry.
Merry has a gifted talent of expressing herself through the use of words that very few of us can do. I will agree that Merry is a great Christian model to follow. But I would not underestimate her belief in God. Merry often expresses an attitude with words that express how many of us feel.

If your comment is meant to say that we Christians think that we ourselves are God, than you are mistaken.

God is Divine, we are divine (all people) because we are made in the image and after the likeness of God

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. So God created man in his own image" (of life). Genesis 1:26-27

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 23rd, 2004, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by oldernow

If your comment is meant to say that we Christians think that we ourselves are God, than you are mistaken.

Reread my post. I did not say you think you are God, I said I believe you speak "for God." Anytime someone says "God will..." do something, he or she speaks for God. Anytime some tells me I am going to hell for some sin or another, he or she speaks for God. Anytime someone tells me that God wants me to do one thing or another, he or she speaks for God.

I know you don't understand the distinction. And therein lies the problem.

When I talk to someone like Merry, I ask a question. She gives her views; she speaks "about God." I ask her to point me to scriptures that talk about that certain issue. She does. I read the scripture and make up my own mind, and then we discuss it. We may or may not agree. You on the other hand tell me there is only one right way to read and interpret the scripture, and that is God's way. I submit that it is not God's way, but your way. And that's what I mean about speaking "for God."

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 09:25 AM

What is speaking "about God" and "for God"?

If I speak about God I am speaking about what Gods Word, the Bible, tells me. Speaking for God is the same thing. If God tells us something in the Bible, we share it.

I think I see what you mean anyway. If I were to say Mr. So and So is going to Hell, I would be speaking for God. That is not acceptable.

God has already spoke for us all. Some Christians simply share it. Anyone can look this stuff up in the Bible and see that we are not speaking for God, God has already spoke these things.

dramaqueen

Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
God has already spoke for us all. Some Christians simply share it. Anyone can look this stuff up in the Bible and see that we are not speaking for God, God has already spoke these things.

Where I get uncomfortable, and according to my understanding of what others are saying-them too, is when the "general truths" of the Bible that a person believes are used on an indidual basis.

For example, saying that all non-believers (ie. non Christians) are going to Hell is speaking FOR God rather than about God. Although there is support for that idea in scripture and I am not denying that is does say that, it also says not to judge and that only God knows what is in a person's heart. How can I presume to say if a particular person is going to Hell? Am I God?
I have the promise and hope of Heaven but if at some point I deny God and trun away am I still going to go to Heaven? I don't belive so since in my heart I am now an unbeliever. How can I presume to say what a person really belives or what they will belive for all their lives? People change. And still other people do not. It is their choice- that is what free will means.

What I believe that idea means is that it doesn't change the intent of the first statement, but it allows room for each person's exploration and conversion through out their life. It is a process.

If a person you speak to is put off by Christianity-they will not want to explore it at all. It is my sentiment that we should talk ABOUT our God and what we feel He has done [i]for[/] us and in us and explain why and how we came to that rather than just quoting scripture that can seem harsh out of context of the whole message of Christ.

In all fairness, there are people who want and need scripture as validation of what claim a person makes. It is helpful to them. They ASK for it. In that case it is good and it should be given. What bothers me, even as a Christian, is people who can do nothing BUT quote scripture. I have met Christians like that and I felt like they were trying to convert me! LOL Talk about preaching to the choir!

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:32 AM

And after reading that, I will add that I have yet to see any Christian poster here post a thread of nothing but quoted scriptures and the intent to condemn other posters to Hell.

Often times we are between a rock and a hard place. We speak about God and what He has done for us, but then there are those who tell us we should post the actual scriptures to back up our belief, and even after we do that, we are then told we are forcing it on others and that we should not always quote scriptures. I have been asked at this board in the recent past more than once to back up what I was saying with scripture and I respectfully suggested to the posters that perhaps its best they read it for themselves then to have me continue to show them, only to have them refute me in the end anyway. The regular posters here who ask such questions know what a Bible is, where to find one and the NT is not an immensely long book, not as long as the new Harry Potter book.

Remember, this is a message board, if you do not want to read something, dont read it. Members can be ignored. Nobody is forcing anything on anyone. And far too often, things are taken the wrong way online.

Its almost a darned if we do, darned if we dont, type situation sometimes.

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by dramaqueen

However, then I read this post quoted above and this is exactly the thing I was trying to say "Doesn't help"

You don't know what might help someone, and what might not. Before becoming a Christian, I took a closer look at what the Bible had to say BECAUSE someone pointed out to me that those who aren't trusting in the finished work of Christ will not go to heaven. I couldn't believe that God would really say that. And when I discovered it was true, I was really angry with him. But 20 some years later, here I am, believing that it's true, and loving God completely. Sometimes becoming a Christian is a process that you have to work through, and what might seem offensive now, will one day prove to be full of mercy and grace. I needed to be confronted with my sinfulness, and to realize that I was not going to get by on my own good deeds. If someone hadn't offended me, I might never have taken the time to find out the truth, believing that everything would work out just fine.

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:51 AM

And an amen to that Julie.

I was offended once in the past by a Christian and quoted scripture. Im not easily offended or angered, so I brushed it off. What did it cause me to do? I decided I should read the Bible for myself. And that was just the beginning.

Sometimes people are offended by stuff like Hell. I was at a church one day and one of my friends told me that he ran into two young women and he politely invited them to church. They asked him one question, and that was, if there was going to be any preaching about sin and Hell? He told them the truth, of course there would be talk of that stuff. We can not share the good without the bad. A church should not just preach half a message. That would not do any good, it would be pointless.

But Julie, I think the major problem is when some Christians, and we all know it happens, throws scriptures at people with the intent to condemn and possibly scare them into accepting Christ, and that will not do any good either. We need to be careful and show the love of Christ. It is up to the individual to come to Christ, to open their heart. We can ask, but we need to back away and let the individual decide.

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:56 AM

Perhaps some people should lighten up and not be so easily offended by something like the love of Christ. I know its all in how some people present themselves, but dont blame that on Christ. Instead, tell the person they need to work on their witnessing.

Im not saying to offend in the name of God though.

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
Thats the problem, Christians are often falsely accused of "beating people over the head" or "forcing their belief down peoples throats", even when simply stating their belief.

Perhaps its not the way Christians present their belief, but how some people want to take it?

It works both ways. There are obviously problems in communication between both parties.

I think it's because the Bible STATES that it will be the "stone that makes men stumble and the rock that makes them fall." The Gospel is MEANT to offend to get people out of the state of complacency that it's so easy to find oneself in. Jesus himself said this news would tear families apart: "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will the members of his own household. Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is worthy of me; and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." Matthew 10:34-39

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by oxymoron
Personally, I very much appreciate the Christian attitude of Drama Queen. She is attempting to be constructive in her approach. I have written before about the issue of communication on this board.

Those that wish to go about their business without regard to the ear of their listener will inevitably be ineffective at communicating their thoughts and ideas. I am much more open to Christians who are able to present their beliefs in a spirit of tolerance, the sharing of ideas, and mutual respect.

A watered-down Gospel will not help anyone. Please, oxymoron, keep in mind that not everyone who reads these boards actually posts. Perhaps my words and those of others here are reaching someone who does need to hear them.

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:04 PM

Then I'll ask you point blank. How do you think you are helping me when I say no, that's not helping? Does that even get through to you? When I say, I am offended by that, do you honestly think that by continuing what you are doing is going to change my mind? If you want to spread the word of God, and yet people are telling you that the way you are doing it is NOT helping to spread the word, does this even make a dent in your thought process? This is what I don't get.

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by dramaqueen

For example, saying that all non-believers (ie. non Christians) are going to Hell is speaking FOR God rather than about God. Although there is support for that idea in scripture and I am not denying that is does say that, it also says not to judge and that only God knows what is in a person's heart. How can I presume to say if a particular person is going to Hell? Am I God?

I don't presume to know what is in each individual's heart. If I had said to oxymoron that he is going to hell unequivocally, I would be playing God, and I would be guilty of great sin. But if I say that if he comes face to face with God, and his sins are not covered by the blood of Jesus, I don't have any good news for him, I am making a statement of truth from the Bible. My statement is qualified with a truth from Scripture. And yes, I am making the statement that if a person has not repented, and does not know Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, at the time of his death, he will be thrown into the lake of fire. There is absolutely no way around that in the Bible. I'm not going to pretend there is to save someone's feelings. What in the world did Jesus suffer and die for if he is not the only way to heaven?

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Then I'll ask you point blank. How do you think you are helping me when I say no, that's not helping? Does that even get through to you? When I say, I am offended by that, do you honestly think that by continuing what you are doing is going to change my mind? If you want to spread the word of God, and yet people are telling you that the way you are doing it is NOT helping to spread the word, does this even make a dent in your thought process? This is what I don't get.

We're both adults. I'm not worried that you can't go and pick up the Bible and read what it says there. Perhaps you need to realize that you aren't the only one reading this thread, and that not everything here is directed towards you.

****As far as I'm concerned, there are already plenty of people posting here who might offer you a kinder, gentler Gospel. I see no point in affirming easy-believeism.

dramaqueen

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:28 PM

keep in mind that not everyone who reads these boards actually posts. Perhaps my words and those of others here are reaching someone who does need to hear them.

I know its all in how some people present themselves, but dont blame that on Christ. Instead, tell the person they need to work on their witnessing.

Its almost a darned if we do, darned if we dont, type situation sometimes.

I agree with all of those things. And when I read what DoubleEdgeSword wrote it does raise a valid question.
Perhaps the answer is that people are not trying to change minds?!

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by Julie2
We're both adults. I'm not worried that you can't go and pick up the Bible and read what it says there. Perhaps you need to realize that you aren't the only one reading this thread, and that not everything here is directed towards you.

****As far as I'm concerned, there are already plenty of people posting here who might offer you a kinder, gentler Gospel. I see no point in affirming easy-believeism.

No, I'm not the only one reading the thread, but I am the one asking those specific questions. And you wonder why some of us are so turned off by Christians? Your post is indicitive of the reason why so many of us think people like you give all Christians a bad name.

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
No, I'm not the only one reading the thread, but I am the one asking those specific questions. And you wonder why some of us are so turned off by Christians? Your post is indicitive of the reason why so many of us think people like you give all Christians a bad name.

Then I respectfully suggest that you continue asking your questions to those who give you the answers you prefer to hear, and ignore mine.

****That doesn't mean that I won't continue to respond to your questions however!

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by dramaqueen
I agree with all of those things. And when I read what DoubleEdgeSword wrote it does raise a valid question.
Perhaps the answer is that people are not trying to change minds?!

I agree. I think some of the Christians on this board just want to be right.

I ask questions because I'm interested. I wouldn't be here if I were not. I'm not here to have someone tell me that I'm wrong and they are right. I don't care who you are, or what the subject is, that kind of approach does not lead to understanding. -

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
I agree. I think some of the Christians on this board just want to be right.

I ask questions because I'm interested. I wouldn't be here if I were not. I'm not here to have someone tell me that I'm wrong and they are right. I don't care who you are, or what the subject is, that kind of approach does not lead to understanding. -

If you are asking questions because you are interested, then you have to realize that you are probably going to get some answers sometimes that you don't like, especially where a topic like faith is concerned. I don't understand why anyone would chose to believe in something that they don't believe is 100% correct (in matters of faith). As far as having an approach that leads to understanding, I would not be true to myself or my beliefs if I were to try to water things down so they would be more palatable to you or anyone else. I don't say these things because I want to be right. God is right. I am nothing. I say these things because I've found a love and peace that surpasses all understanding, and it's my desire to be used by God in whatever capacity he sees fit to reach whomever he give ears to hear the message.

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
I ask questions because I'm interested. I wouldn't be here if I were not. I'm not here to have someone tell me that I'm wrong and they are right. I don't care who you are, or what the subject is, that kind of approach does not lead to understanding. -

Amen!

And again, it works both ways.

Christians in this forum have been told more than once that their belief is illogical and/or wrong without even being provoked to deserve such comments.

My hope is that we could all learn to respect each other.

DoubleEdgeSword

Mar 23rd, 2004, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Julie2
If you are asking questions because you are interested, then you have to realize that you are probably going to get some answers sometimes that you don't like, especially where a topic like faith is concerned.

I was not addressing the answer to questions, I was talking about the method of answering the questions. I point you to the responses from Merry, Bekah, dramaqueen and pinky who seem to be able to respond to questions of faith without the slightest hint of self-righteousness.

I don't understand why anyone would chose to believe in something that they don't believe is 100% correct (in matters of faith). As far as having an approach that leads to understanding, I would not be true to myself or my beliefs if I were to try to water things down so they would be more palatable to you or anyone else. I don't say these things because I want to be right. God is right. I am nothing. I say these things because I've found a love and peace that surpasses all understanding, and it's my desire to be used by God in whatever capacity he sees fit to reach whomever he give ears to hear the message.

I think you've mistaken my stand. I do not believe in a Christian god. I am however interested in learning about all religions. I'm not asking, nor do I seek conversion to your religion. Perhaps that is the error in your thinking. I do not ask that anyone water down their beliefs, I only ask that they respect that I may not share their beliefs. And attitude of "oh you poor thing, you just don't know" of "you don't believe, just wait, you'll end up in a lake of fire" is not one of respect.

Julie2

Mar 23rd, 2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
I was not addressing the answer to questions, I was talking about the method of answering the questions. I point you to the responses from Merry, Bekah, dramaqueen and pinky who seem to be able to respond to questions of faith without the slightest hint of self-righteousness.

[B]

I think you've mistaken my stand. I do not believe in a Christian god. I am however interested in learning about all religions. I'm not asking, nor do I seek conversion to your religion. Perhaps that is the error in your thinking. I do not ask that anyone water down their beliefs, I only ask that they respect that I may not share their beliefs. And attitude of "oh you poor thing, you just don't know" of "you don't believe, just wait, you'll end up in a lake of fire" is not one of respect.

I am very sorry if I am sounding self-righteous. That's about the last thing I want to do. I absolutely respect your right to your own beliefs, as I would not want anyone to disrespect mine. My intent has not been to make anyone think that I feel I'm better than someone else because of my beliefs, and any of the things I've posted here have not been with my nose in the air, but rather with an extremely grateful heart, and a deep desire that others would know God's mercy and grace.

oldernow

Mar 23rd, 2004, 03:52 PM

No, I'm not the only one reading the thread, but I am the one asking those specific questions. And you wonder why some of us are so turned off by Christians? Your post is indicitive of the reason why so many of us think people like you give all Christians a bad name.

Just a thought, how would you know what a good or a bad Christian is?
It can be said that it is people like yourself that give all people a bad name. (Dont take offense I was just using the word "you" as an example)

bluehorizonx10

Mar 23rd, 2004, 08:22 PM

I have the promise and hope of Heaven but if at some point I deny God and trun away am I still going to go to Heaven? I don't belive so since in my heart I am now an unbeliever. How can I presume to say what a person really belives or what they will belive for all their lives? People change. And still other people do not. It is their choice- that is what free will means.

Scripture says that we as Christian's will answer to God for each and every time we don't tell others of the good news of Jesus Christ when offered. He actually puts situations at our fingertips....what's more the Holy Spirit will burden our hearts to offer non believers scripture witnessing as to the truth in salvation and that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. If we only answer with 'of course, it's your free choice' and don't share that news, we lose a great reward in Heaven plus possibly losing the last chance God will ever offer that person of coming to Him for redemption. Who knows? Maybe you're that very last person and very last time He feels is sufficient, after trying for years, to offer grace to this person

And to add, people do change.........it's called sin. We all are human and are imperfect too. Just because a believer strays or sins and says they don't believe doesn't mean they lose their salvation. The Bible tells us nothing can ever pluck us from the hands of the Father. In other words, once saved always saved. If you just one day wake up and say 'oh well, I don't think I believe anymore' you weren't saved to begin with. Scripture bears witness to that fact.

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 08:58 PM

"As we must account for every idle word, so we must for every idle silence."

Benjamin Franklin

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 10:44 PM

Some would say that growing in sin would not be growth.

tiger_rascal

Mar 23rd, 2004, 10:45 PM

I suppose there are different kinds of growth, since there are different kinds of Christians. Good and bad.

bluehorizonx10

Mar 24th, 2004, 04:48 AM

I have the promise and hope of Heaven but if at some point I deny God and trun away am I still going to go to Heaven?How can I presume to say what a person really belives or what they will belive for all their lives? People change.

And to add, people do change.........it's called sin.

Gosh, I was hoping that change could be called....growth.

As you can see from the original post she was referring to people falling out of the will of God. That can only be labeled as sin. That was my reference point. And growth means moving forward. To say you don't believe after committing your life to Jesus would definitely be going backwards. Christian's stray everyday. It's always a hard road back because of our sinful nature but entirely possible through prayer and love for Jesus Christ and yourself.

dramaqueen

Mar 24th, 2004, 08:06 AM

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
Scripture says that we as Christian's will answer to God for each and every time we don't tell others of the good news of Jesus Christ when offered. He actually puts situations at our fingertips....what's more the Holy Spirit will burden our hearts to offer non believers scripture witnessing as to the truth in salvation and that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light. If we only answer with 'of course, it's your free choice' and don't share that news, we lose a great reward in Heaven plus possibly losing the last chance God will ever offer that person of coming to Him for redemption. Who knows? Maybe you're that very last person and very last time He feels is sufficient, after trying for years, to offer grace to this person
You are right it is a person's free choice. And the thing that really got to me about this post is that you seemed to ASSUME that I was not sharing the Gospel because I don't do it in the way that YOU believe it should be done. I live my faith everyday. I have learned how to do it in action rather than words and I do belive I can express my belief and my faith wihtout quoting scripture. I am not allowed to anyway where I work. Does that mean that I am not being faithful? No, it means I have found other ways to speak.

If my God were so impatient as to QUIT TRYING to save some one I would be someone who would not want to believe anymore. The God I follow is loving and wishes that NONE perrish. In my opinion, He would not have someone's salvations and eternal life depend on me. That is foolish. I am a human who is imprefect. I can plant a seed and HE can grow it over time. I have very little to do with it. I belive that as long as a person is seeking and questioning they may find the Grace of God. Even until they take their last breath.

And to add, people do change.........it's called sin. We all are human and are imperfect too. Just because a believer strays or sins and says they don't believe doesn't mean they lose their salvation. The Bible tells us nothing can ever pluck us from the hands of the Father. In other words, once saved always saved. If you just one day wake up and say 'oh well, I don't think I believe anymore' you weren't saved to begin with. Scripture bears witness to that fact.

Not all change is sin. If it were it wouldn't be FREE WILL. I have "changed" and it is called GROWTH. I have become a way better person. I like who I am and how I live way more than I did. I know that you were not implying all change is sin but that does seem like a logical conclusion to your statement.
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that irriates a non-believer, and which you can not seem to understand. This IS speaking for God. THis is NOT in any way speaking about God.
You presume to know the state of a person's salvation based on statements.
You have a double standard. You say all I have to do is believe. Ok so I do. Then I "sin" or I "change my mind" then you tell me that I "wasn't really saved to begin with?" How can you presume to know this? What is the mark of a "true" conversion? Fruits? What if I had the fruits? Was I STILL never saved?
Look, I know that you probably believe that there is a sinlge moment that a person becomes "saved" (as long as they do it "right" or else it won't "take"...according to the above statement)
I challenege that statment. I was "SAVED". I went to the church and I made my profession. And a thought kept nagging at me. Does this mean I was NOT SAVED before that moment? I looked back on my life. I saw the fingerprints of God all over it. I asked myself, how could GOD have "just saved me" if He was with me all along? To say that he was preparing me, seems to belittle His role in my life. And even after I was "SAVED" I kept feeling the need to reconfess my devotion-since I never felt worthy enough of that love.
I suppose it was because these people I was being taught by-who were also SAVED-kept "teaching me" that everyone else was going to Hell. You know I believed it for a while. Teen I kept feeling guilty. I felt like I was playing God and I was very convicted to stop it. I was shown that I couldn't possibly KNOW who was and was not going to hell. When I stopped that I could see what I really needed to do. I needed to quit "focusing on people's shortcoming and trying to SAVE them"(which was futile since I am in need of a savior myself) and to work on myself. Improving ME. Which, in the end is all I can do anyway.
I know all the verses you believe say that one must be saved. I know all the rhetoric about not losing one's salvation, I do not agree. I belive that you have the free will to turn you back on God anytime you want. If you are living with him and growing in him (saved, if you will), you will not want to. But you CAN turn your back on God and He will let you. Otherwise your love would be cheap and meaingless as it was forced and not a gift.
Just a final thought...If we are assured, garunteed even a place in Heaven once we decided to love and follow Jesus..then why does Paul say we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling? If it is an instant prize for saying the words what work would be necessary?
Do I belive I will go to Heaven? Sure I do, because I have the HOPE. Because of all the promises I have. But do I know for 100% certain? No, and no one can until they are THERE! All you have until then is the hope and the promise. I am not saying anythign I do can "earn me a place" either. It is entirely, completely and 100% up to God whether I get there and until the day I find out- I am going to do all that I belive that God would want, based on the message He left for me and the urgings in my heart.

tiger_rascal

Mar 24th, 2004, 08:44 AM

dramaqueen, how do you plant that seed? If you say you use actions rather than words, that is perfectly fine, I think its safe to say all Christians do that as well. Some Christians use actions, some words and some both. As that saying goes, "Preach the Gospel at all times. If necessary, use words."!

The main point that has been tried to be made is that some Christians must witness the wrong way since they try to use scripture, thus they must be bad Christians. Its my belief that there is no bad Christian and just because someone does not know how to properly witness does not mean we should think any less of them, instead, we should help them.

dramaqueen

Mar 24th, 2004, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
The main point that has been tried to be made is that some Christians must witness the wrong way since they try to use scripture, thus they must be bad Christians.

I have never said that using scripture is wrong and will continue to maintain that. Using scripture to support a point does not make one a bad Christian. Neither does NOT using scripture. I can get my point accross to people who don't believe in God, but according the the Christians, I am watering down the message because I am not directly quoting the Bible.

Its my belief that there is no bad Christian and just because someone does not know how to properly witness does not mean we should think any less of them, instead, we should help them.
That is implying that there is a right and wrong way. What I am saying is that I do not believe that. The EFFECTIVE way is to address the audience. I can paraphrase and leave it up to the person I am talking to if they want me to back it up or not.

What is a bad thing-independent of what religion a person is- is to ignore their point of view because it is not yours. To address a person from your thinking, understanding, and viewpoint as if it were the only one and to impose it on someone else.
I will maintain this is bad if it is done by a Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim..you get where this is going.
Walk a mile in the other persons shoes. Understand where they are coming from. Find a common ground. Your words will not fall on deaf ears that way and there might actually be some real dialogue that stems from a mutual respect.

I doesn't matter what a message says...if it is delivered as Spam, it will automatically be deleted. :D

tiger_rascal

Mar 24th, 2004, 11:09 AM

I understand where you are coming from.

I never said you were the poster saying such things, you assumed. I said your way of witnessing is perfectly fine. And I do believe there is a wrong way to witness, you simply do not approach someone and yell in their face they are going to Hell. That would be wrong or ineffective, whatever you want to call it.

The rest of what you have posted, I think its safe to say, is something that some of the posters here know. Preaching to the choir. But, it does not hurt to be reminded. :biggrin:

bluehorizonx10

Mar 24th, 2004, 06:17 PM

You are right it is a person's free choice. And the thing that really got to me about this post is that you seemed to ASSUME that I was not sharing the Gospel because I don't do it in the way that YOU believe it should be done. I live my faith everyday. I have learned how to do it in action rather than words and I do belive I can express my belief and my faith wihtout quoting scripture. I am not allowed to anyway where I work. Does that mean that I am not being faithful? No, it means I have found other ways to speak.

I learned to not ASSUME anything many years ago. What I posted was not at all about anything you might or might not do. You set up a situation in words. I merely told the other side of the situation in words.......nothing directed at you. It's very hard to portray our true thoughts on a message board rather than in person. There are always some clarity and information lost in typed words alone. I would not question your faith. But I also would add that nothing we can say or do really saves a person. They see our lives and that should be witness enough to show what a true Christian is. But a non believer needs words to understand. If they don't hear the news of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they can't know what it means. There's always time away from work if co-workers have questions for you that they can't find from others in their search for what they believe.

If my God were so impatient as to QUIT TRYING to save some one I would be someone who would not want to believe anymore. The God I follow is loving and wishes that NONE perrish.

Exactly!! But I would have to say I've heard several pastors point out scripture that does indicate there is a point when God has offered and offered His children to accept Him. When the person has repeatedly denied His grace and mercy AND is actually harming others from their own salvation in odd ways, then God is done. God deals with our hearts and we feel it, but we deny Him.......some Sunday after Sunday. I'll give you one example I have been told by a pastor. True story.......There was this guy that showed up every service. He was a crude man, but for the sake of not offending others I'll not tell specifics. But he did attend and listen to God's calling week after week with denial and upsetting the service time after time with some form of hostility toward God. Finally one service he stood up and interrupted the pastor offering the altar call with blasphemy for God right in His own house. That man went out and drove down the road only a few hundred feet and was killed. Now granted we don't really know if he might have asked Jesus to save him just before he hit that truck. But.........all odds are God finished with Him and on judgement day he will be bound to hell. That's sad to hear that one hears God's Word over and over and actually know the Savior lived and died for us..........and still deny Him.

Not all change is sin.

I'm really not making this a pesonal thing. I wish you felt the same way. I only meant going back on God trying to make yourself no longer believe is a negative change and is not good.

You presume to know the state of a person's salvation based on statements.
You have a double standard. You say all I have to do is believe. Ok so I do. Then I "sin" or I "change my mind" then you tell me that I "wasn't really saved to begin with?" How can you presume to know this? What is the mark of a "true" conversion? Fruits? What if I had the fruits? Was I STILL never saved?
Look, I know that you probably believe that there is a sinlge moment that a person becomes "saved" (as long as they do it "right" or else it won't "take"...according to the above statement)
I challenege that statment. I was "SAVED".

I only have one statement to all these questions including the question on whether you're saved. You KNOW when you truly are saved. The Bible says we are a new creature. But you're right in saying others don't KNOW. The way we live and go through each day says a lot to others, but no one can really know about their salvation but the person themselves.

then why does Paul say we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling? If it is an instant prize for saying the words what work would be necessary?

Paul is telling the church here to work out the problems they have in their church by working out their problems in their own Christian lives. The next verse answers the question.

Phillipians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If God has saved you, He has saved you in faith........plus nothing else. He doesn't accept any good works for salvation. But AFTER salvation He does talk to you about your works from there forward.

I do KNOW a 100% I'm going to Heaven because Jesus told me I would if only I believed. He tells me so here.

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That's a promise from the lips of Jesus Himself directly from the Father in Heaven. God doesn't break promises.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.