The 10 commandments are everything the United States are not

[shining star]

The 10 commandments are everything the United States are not

by Marc Berard

There are many different battles across the United States of America concerning the posting of the 10 Commandments in public buildings/grounds. The posting is illegal as it violates the First Amendment's establishment of religion clause. This does not deter those seeking to have it posted on any available surface. To sneak around the First Amendment many have adopted the tactic of calling it an "historical document" and "the basis for our system of law", often trying to post it as part of a larger display with historical documents. To me, this is like trying to make a marijuana plant legally acceptable by planting daisies and gardenias around it and calling it a botanical display.

But does their main argument hold any water? Is American law based upon the 10 Commandments? Let us examine them.

1. You shall have no other gods before me

This runs directly counter to the first amendment. This commandment demands obedience to a single, specific god. The first amendment gives the right for worshiping any or none.

2. You shall not make yourself a graven image, nor any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Once again, this runs directly against the freedom of religion in the First Amendment. There is also some dispute as to what counts as a graven image. The catholic church has statues and stained glass windows, while other christian denominations consider these iconography, and therefore in violation of this commandment. Some religious orders even go so far as to be against non-religious images and photographs. If the law prohibited non-religious images that would then be a violation of freedom of speech/expression.

3. You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain

Now this commandment is directly counter to the freedom of speech. For being the 'basis for our laws' about one third of the commandments run directly counter to constitutional rights.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.

While there is a tradition of seven day week, there is no law mandating that anyone keep the sabbath. People are free to work on any day they wish. Also the tradition here is for a 5 day work week, with two days off on the weekend. Does that mean we are in violation of the commandment? Should we now give up our Saturdays and report to work?

5. Honor your father and your mother

Frankly, some parents might not be all that worthy of honor. There is no law requiring a person to honor their parents. In fact there are laws to protect children from abusive parents, and children can be taken away from unfit parents.

6. You shall not kill

A good commandment, but hardly original. Laws against murder existed in pretty much all cultures long before hearing about the 10 commandments. Therefore claiming such laws are based on the 10 commandments are unfounded.

7. You shall not commit adultery

A very good suggestion, if you define adultery as between a married person and someone who is not their spouse. However, there is no federal law against it. State laws will vary on the subject. If you define adultery as between any couple not married to one another, even if they are both single, then there are even fewer laws against it, and the state laws can probably be challenged. There was not too long ago a case in California: A man and a woman were brought up on charges for living together. The charges were brought up by his ex-girlfriend who found religion, ignoring that they lived together for a while. The district attorney went to the court to have the law stricken from the books.

8. You shall not steal

Like #6, good but hardly original.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor

like #6 and #8 good but not original.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his female slave, or his ox, or his ass, or anything that is your neighbor's

Isn't that what capitalism is all about? There are no laws against thoughts or desires. Any such law would run counter to civil liberties.

Postlude

Out of the 10 commandments, 4 (1, 2, 3, 10) are counter to American laws. 3 (6, 8, 9) are part of our legal system, but are part of just about every legal system in history. 2 (4, 5) are not a part of our laws. And 1 (7) may or may not be a part of state or local laws. Even in a state that has laws concerning #7, that still means less than half of the 10 commandments carry any legal weight, and an equal number are illegal to enforce.

Those that claim the 10 commandments are our basis for law apparently do not know the law very well. The only thing funnier is those that want it posted illegally in schools "to teach children respect for the law".

http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/10command.htm

[smackers]

An interesting article. I wonder why there are no responses.

To me, this is like trying to make a marijuana plant legally acceptable by planting daisies and gardenias around it and calling it a botanical display.

;) Ahhh, botanical displays.

[shining star]

Originally posted by smackers
I wonder why there are no responses. Shocking, isn't it? I posted it on the political board and it was silent there, too. http://talk.livedaily.com/images/ld/icons/cool_alt.gif

[Leezard]

Eh, I didn't respond because I just didn't have anything to say.

[bluehorizonx10]

That wasn't a direct quote of the Ten Commandments from my Bible, so I chose not to waste my time in reading after the first two, or responding.

[db44]

Ignorance is bliss?

Yeah, well, I'm still waiting in Political Forum to find out how the Judeo-Christian God created marriage if Egyptians seem to be the first people to honor such bondings...

[shining star]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
That wasn't a direct quote of the Ten Commandments from my Bible, so I chose not to waste my time in reading after the first two, or responding. Well if that isn't the biggest cop out I've ever read...

Are you telling me that the way it is worded in the article is so dramatically different from what is printed in your Bible that the meaning is completely different? Give me a break.

[bluehorizonx10]

I don't recall really getting into the marriage discussion, so I have no comment on that one Dave. I think I remember reading a few posts on it though.

No, shining star, no cop out. I only told the truth. I have no interest in the topic to begin with, but thought since you had commented twice on it and Liz finally gave her reason, I would too. Actually just a boring snowy Sunday, and I thought I'd answer you why I didn't post my opinion.

[db44]

No Gail, I wasn't referring to you on that bit.

[bluehorizonx10]

*waves hello to Dave* Yep I didn't think you were, but wanted to be certain. :)

[oldernow]

Sorry about that Dave, I forgot about that thread.

Genesis 2:21-24
So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place.
The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
The man said, " This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man."
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

As for responding to this thread, I have nothing to say that hasn't been already said in the past on the same subject.

[smackers]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
That wasn't a direct quote of the Ten Commandments from my Bible, so I chose not to waste my time in reading after the first two, or responding.

What does yours say?

[db44]

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/asbook06.html

This website seems to be a decent timeline of ancient civilizations. Egypt goes back further than Judaism and weve arleady shown how Egyptians had marriage before Jews did. Considering Egyptians have their own Gods, would you accept your vision of God plajurized from his Egyptian peers?

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I'm curious about something...

In the Bible, apparently there were two versions of the Ten Commandemnts, correct? In the first version, God wrote "with his own finger" on the clay tablets Moses made. Then, for some reason Moses destroyed those, so God said make another set which he did. But the second clay tablets, God dictated the commandments and Moses wrote them down. The two versions have some big differences.

So, why is it that modern Christians have settled on the second version as the "correct" one? It seems to me that the version that God physically wrote himself would carry more weight than one that was dictated.

[oldernow]

Dave, We are all decended from Adam and eve. They were the first two beings. Therefore they were here before the Egyptians.

I might add that the Bible never said that Adam and Eve were Jewish.

[oldernow]

I believe God started identifying Abraham and his sons as Hebrews. It wasn't until Jacob was born that God changed his Name to Israel.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by oldernow
Dave, We are all decended from Adam and eve. They were the first two beings. Therefore they were here before the Egyptians.

I might add that the Bible never said that Adam and Eve were Jewish.

Well, there's scientific evidence that the Egyptians existed, but not so for Adam and Eve, so I'd have to go with Dave's analysis.

[Java]

Should we now give up our Saturdays and report to work?Odd question... since the American calendar has Saturday as being the last day of the week, technically it would be the Sabbath day, but in many other countries Sunday is considered the last day of the week, and therefore would be considered the Sabbath day...

[db44]

True about it never stated about Adam and Eve being (or not being) Jewish.

That still doesn't change the fact that I don't believe Adam and Eve existed the way they were depicted in the Bible. I also don't remember where in the Bible it talks about Egyptians being decendants of Adam and Eve, other than the overall statement that all are decended from Adam and Eve.

As double points out, there isproof of Egyptians, but none of Adam and Eve. Humankind has roamed pretty much all over the globe, but there has been no location where we haven't been able to walk through. And those places where humans find intollerable, it has not been garden-like with supernatural powers keeping people out, but desert and hot or artic and freezing. Would God let paradise just disappear like that? Now I can believe in things without proof (i.e. God), but there is so much in the Bible, especially in Genesis, which is seemingly eternal and yet don't exist.

[oldernow]

Your entitled to believe whatever you like. I believe in the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah, the flood, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Also the Flood would have erased any physical evidence of Adam and Eve or any human beings befor that.. Neither do we have any real physical evidence when and how humans came to be. But that doesnt mean that the Egyptians were here first or that they defined marriage.

After tha flood, It was Noah and his family left to re-populate the earth. And we do know that Noah was married and so was his children. But all this means nothing if you dont believe in the Bible.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by oldernow
Your entitled to believe whatever you like. I believe in the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah, the flood, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Also the Flood would have erased any physical evidence of Adam and Eve or any human beings befor that.. Neither do we have any real physical evidence when and how humans came to be. But that doesnt mean that the Egyptians were here first or that they defined marriage.

After tha flood, It was Noah and his family left to re-populate the earth. And we do know that Noah was married and so was his children. But all this means nothing if you dont believe in the Bible.

How long ago were Adam & Eve supposed to have existed? Does the Bible say?

And I understand you believe the creation story, but how do you reconcile it with human fossils that are 5.2 million years old and although they are the first known humans (so far), they look very dissimilar to modern day humans? Were Adam & Eve early hominids?

[db44]

The flood would have still left traces of the Garden of Eden, which was my point of contention. Yet no evidence exists.

[oldernow]

The Bible doesn't say when adam and Eve existed.
As for the dating of fossils, from what I have read over the years that the dating of fossils is based on assumptions. All of the radioactive dating methods are unreliable in determining the age of the earth, fossils, and the strata in which fossils are found.

I am no scientist and I am sure there are plenty of books and websites on the subject all with different views that can be looked at.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Yes, but no matter when they existed, they are human, just not like humans of today. So.. what does the Bible say about that? Were they a different race from Adam & Eve? Or was Adam & Eve the mother and father, so to speak, of the hominids too? So, does that mean A & E were hominids, or did human beings de-evolve at some point?

What I'm getting at is how does Christianity deal with the question of human-like beings on the earth that obviously were earlier ancestors?

[db44]

*cough* garden *cough*

It's not just radioactivity that is used to judge the age of fossils. Chemical reactions, the depth and placement of fossils. You've attempted to refute one test, but not a bunch of others.

[oldernow]

t's not just radioactivity that is used to judge the age of fossils. Chemical reactions, the depth and placement of fossils. You've attempted to refute one test, but not a bunch of others.
I know there are many more ways used to judge the date of fossils. None of them can be proven accurate.

[oldernow]

Double, Adam and eve were the same human race as we are. I think you are starting to get into evolution and I dont buy into that at all. I do not believe that we evolved.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Yes, I understand that you don't believe in evolution; however, there is proof of early humans. How do you reconcile that proof with your beliefs?

[tiger_rascal]

If Noahs Ark, Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden were proven true by some historical scientific evidence, would that then cause non-believers to believe?

Its much more than that. How do I know that God did not wipe away all proof so that we would have to rely on faith in our Lord Jesus Christ? I dont. Its one of those things. People who believe in the "big bang" and "evolution" theory have no such proof either, yet they believe.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I don't know, Chad. Those Bible stories are so divorced from reality... They're nice stories, but to actually believe they happened would mean me throwing in the towel of common sense. Honestly, they are just too far-fetched. Woman created from the rib of a man? No. It's just not rational. There is absolutely nothing in my experience I can relate that to.

But, my questioning is not intended to prove or disprove anyone's belief in the Bible stories. I just sincerely wonder how Christians reconcile those stories with some of the evidence out there, especially regarding early man.

I mean, do you just put that evidence in some box and insist it doesn't exist? Do you just say to yourself that because the Bible says it's true, it is and to heck with anything that may contradict? You all seem like intelligent people. I have a difficult time understanding how you just dismiss some things that are very real. It really boggles my mind.

[bluehorizonx10]

It's just not rational.

God's works aren't really rational to us, as human beings and His creation. That's why we created that special word miracle to cover the things our Father can and does do. Double, I have to be honest........that in itself is what boggles my mind. All the proof and common sense in the world will never ever explain all His greatness and power. :) That's why I don't try to look for it; I only go by faith that it is as He told us it is in His own words.

[oldernow]

In my opinion its not rational to believe that we evolved from a blob. If science cannot prove that we evolved or the big bang, or how old the earth is,or how old fossils really are, than how is that more rational then believing in God, ( something that is beyond us,) created the human race and everything in it? to me it's ll in what you choose to believe. Science cannot prove evolution, and science cannot prove creation. So it's a choice in which one wants to believe. But if one is going to go by evidence or scientific proof, neither one can be proven.

I dont believe the earth is billions of years old, and I dont believe there were another race of people either.
Where I stand is that death did not enter the world until Adam and Eve sinned. So therefore there was no life on earth before them.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I can't even imagine living like that way, Gail. I have to question.

So, when Christians say they do not believe in evolution, do they then discount ALL evolution; that is, changes in nature.. systems, designs, forms? I mean, creatures do change over time in response to stresses in their environment. This is the very essence of evolution. Do Christians just believe that this does not exist?

Science does not answer the moral questions as religion tries to do. There is no morality in nature. Nature just.. is. Homo sapiens have been virtually the same for the past 30,000 years, but there were hominids before homo sapiens. There is no lesson here, no claims on the moral character. It is simply biological history. How can one discount this history without abandoning all reason?

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by oldernow
I dont believe there were another race of people either.


Then, what are these fossils of early man? It doesn't matter if these skulls and leg bones and teeth are 4.5 million years old or 50 years old. They do exist. What are they then, if not another "race" of people?

[oldernow]

The fossil record is not complete enough to show a definite relationship between ape and man. It seems more plausible that there were creatures who shared characteristics similar to humanity but were not human. And again we cannot know how old these fossils are.

When scientsts are looking for evolutionary ancestors then it is likely what they will report to have found. That is just human nature. The same goes for creationists. There are so many different theory's about fossils and such that there is no way to determine any as fact. I do know that very few fossils are ever handled because they are very delicate and fragile. So usually casts are made from them and there is no way to get accurate data from a cast. All of this is speculation at best, if you were to put in front of me absolute evidence beyond doubt that we evolved from apes than I would have to agree with that. Science depends on physical evidence to prove itself, and you cannot prove evoltion or creation by these method's. I am not asking for physical proof of creation because I know that it cannot be proven that way. I believe God created and the how is beyond our understanding. I realize that I may sound like a irational person but I assure you that I am no more irational than anyone else. I have faith, a faith and God has proven himself to me. And as hard as it may be for anyone to believe, God creating the human race does make sense to me. I accept that God did the creating because I believe He did. And we are made in the image of God.

[shining star]

Thanks for completely derailing my thread, people. :mad:

Just kidding! An interesting debate going on here. :)

[DoubleEdgeSword]

My point is that it doesn't matter whether or not science can trace these fossils back to apes. These fossils DO exist. And they are not homo sapiens, but another species of hominids.

My questions are still unanswered. If these are not another race of man, then what are they? And do you just ignore that they exist because they don't fit your story of creation?

And my other question was not answered either. Do you believe there is no such thing as evolution, period? Not even today? Not among ANY living creatures?

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by shining star
Thanks for completely derailing my thread, people. :mad:

Just kidding! An interesting debate going on here. :)

Dang. Sorry Misty. Well, I asked a question about the 10 Commandments and nobody answered that one either.

[Earl Purple]

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God.

While there is a tradition of seven day week, there is no law mandating that anyone keep the sabbath. People are free to work on any day they wish. Also the tradition here is for a 5 day work week, with two days off on the weekend. Does that mean we are in violation of the commandment? Should we now give up our Saturdays and report to work?


No, because the Sabbath day referred to in that law is the Jewish Sabbath, so if anything you should go back to work on Sunday.

But the laws apply to Jews only, so you can work on Saturday if you want to, and you don't need to leave early on Fridays in winter. Days start at sunset. This is derived not only from the verses "it was evening, it was morning..." in the creation verses, but also where it mentions that the Day of Atonement runs from evening to evening (therefore all Sabbaths and Festivals must do so). And about Passover it also mentions it running from evening to evening. (Exodus chapter 12).

By the way, you, like many Christians, have not parsed the text correctly, the first commandment is "I am the Lord your G-d who brought you out of the land of Egypt", and the commandment ends there. That is a positive commandment to recognise G-d as the one who brought the Jewish people from the land of Egypt into the wilderness to give them the commandments. It does not apply to non-Jews who were not brought out of Egypt. (It does not say "I am the Lord your G-d who created the world" or "I am the Lord your G-d who rescued Noah and his family from the flood").

"You shall have no other G-ds" is part of the 2nd commandment, the same commandment against making a graven image, both of which are considered part of idolatory. Idolatory is one of the 7 laws forbidden to all nations. Graven images do not include photographs, although you should not pray directly in front of one.

Law 3 also applies to all nations and has to be taken more seriously than people think. Saying that you are doing something in the name of G-d can be used as an excuse for all kinds of evil, and is blasphemy of the worst kind.

Law 5 (honouring parents) does not apply to all nations. Although it is correct to respect parents who obey the laws, the law does not apply to the same degree to those who are not descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Even those who may be descended from 2 of those patriarchs but are descended from Esau rather than Jacob - have to find the righteous path by themselves and cannot accredit it to their ancestors).

Laws 6, 7 and 8 apply to all nations. Adultery laws also include incest but do not include harlotry, although it is discouraged. Living together outside of marriage is also discouraged. Homosexual sex and bestiality are forbidden. Theft also applies (in fact mainly applies within the commandment) as kidnapping, which includes slave-trade. The Canaanite slaves referred to in the Torah are captives of war. The Hebrew slaves are those who ran into debts they couldn't pay, often because they stole and couldn't pay back. As debts are cancelled in the Sabbatical year, these Hebrew slaves were freed at that time as they no longer had any debts.

Law 9 applies to all nations too. One of the 7 Noahide laws is to establish a system of legal justice, and thereby obviously requires truth in court.

Law 10 does not apply to all nations but coveting is discouraged because it leads people into breaking the other commandments.

There is one other law that applies to all nations, and that is with regard to cutting limbs off living creatures, which is forbidden. Some say that this also extends to eating blood from animals (but not fish), and therefore the meat should be salted to remove the blood (like is done with Kosher meat).

[Earl Purple]

Originally posted by db44
. I also don't remember where in the Bible it talks about Egyptians being decendants of Adam and Eve, other than the overall statement that all are decended from Adam and Eve.


Everyone is descended from Noah.

Noah had 3 songs, Shem, Ham and Japhet.

One of the sons of Ham was called Cush, and Cush begat "Mitzraim" which is the same as Egypt.

[Earl Purple]

Originally posted by oldernow
The Bible doesn't say when adam and Eve existed.
As for the dating of fossils, from what I have read over the years that the dating of fossils is based on assumptions. All of the radioactive dating methods are unreliable in determining the age of the earth, fossils, and the strata in which fossils are found.

I am no scientist and I am sure there are plenty of books and websites on the subject all with different views that can be looked at.

It does say when they existed. It gives exactly the number of years that Adam lived, how old he was when Seth was born (130) and then the same for all generation from Seth down to Noah.

So if Adam was born in year 1, we know the flood was year 1656 and Abraham was born in 1948, Isaac in 2048, Jacob in 2108 and Jacob was 130 when he went down to Egypt which was 2238. They stayed there 210 years so they came out in 2448 and entered Israel in 2488.

The year is now (according to the calculations) 5764.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

So, according to the Bible, humans have been on this planet for 5,764 years? Is that what you're saying Earl Purple?

[Earl Purple]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
If Noahs Ark, Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden were proven true by some historical scientific evidence, would that then cause non-believers to believe?

Its much more than that. How do I know that God did not wipe away all proof so that we would have to rely on faith in our Lord Jesus Christ? I dont. Its one of those things. People who believe in the "big bang" and "evolution" theory have no such proof either, yet they believe.

because the evidence hasn't all been erased. we have the texts that were passed down from Moses and from generation to generation, which state otherwise.

And therefore there is no need to rely on faith or Jesus anything.

By the way, there is a prophecy about Christianity in the Old Testament, in the book of Daniel in fact, and in chapter 2. There when Daniel explains Nebuchadnezzar's dream, he goes through all the nations that will have dominant control of the earth. Babylon was the gold one, Persia the silver one and Greece the bronze one. Rome and Christianity are the iron one and Islam is the clay one. The Jewish messiah is the stone one that will sweep them all away.

[oldernow]

So, according to the Bible, humans have been on this planet for 5,764 years? Is that what you're saying Earl Purple?
While we do know approximately how long ago Adam and Eve existed I believe there is a time period between generations that we are not to sure of the time difference. I forget where maybe Earl can tell us. Most creationists believe that the Earth is somewhere betwen 6 to 10 thousand years old.

[shining star]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Dang. Sorry Misty. Well, I asked a question about the 10 Commandments and nobody answered that one either. I keed, I keed. ;)

Yeah, my questions about gay marriage on the political board didn't get answered either. Shock of all shocks.

[oldernow]

I appologise for going off topic, it was not my intention.

[db44]

Originally posted by Earl Purple
because the evidence hasn't all been erased. we have the texts that were passed down from Moses and from generation to generation, which state otherwise.

And therefore there is no need to rely on faith or Jesus anything.



We have writings chronicalling the life of Moses. From about the same time, we have hiroglyphics depicting the times of Anon. What about Native American religions, and the various Gods and beliefs from their tribes? There are many, many "texts" passed down older than Moses. Why are those of Moses the true ones?

For all their importance, isn't it surprising that only one text survives from the Judeo-Christian origins? I mean, you can talk about the two-writer aspects of Genesis and how there are the four books of the New Testament, but that's it?

Suppose something happened to our Earth and it was wiped clean. The only surviving evidence of Humankind is the Skywalker Ranch. Would the decendants of the ranch look at Star Wars as their Bible? Why not? It has bits of creationism in it, it shows what is needed to live a good or bad life. That's all I see in the Bible. A fictional telling of the past which sometimes uses real-life as inspitation, which can be interpreted as a (sometimes) decent way to live one's life.

Speaking of the Native Americans, how do believers acount for them? If we are in fact going by the reference of the year 5764, how do they factor into the Bible? The earliest Native Americans were here 15,000 years ago (according to the World Book Online article on "Indian, American"), and the article says they may have been here as far back as 35,000 years ago. There is your proof of human life before the Bible. Or do you not believe in Native Americans? People older than the Bible, hunted down and slaughtered by peace-loving Christians.

As for not believing in fossils, that sounds eerily similar to the days of Galileo. Even when there is proof, it is shunned by the church. Galileo was killed by the church for first publishing what we now accept as the truth. Or do you still believe the universe is Geo-centric, and that the stars and the moon and the Sun are all revolving around the Earth, stuck upon a giant bowl surrounding the Earth? Most people these days seem to consider Galileo one of the greatest scientific minds of all-time. Yet people back then refused to believe his facts because it went against the church and the scriptures. Do you all believe in Galileo?

[Daisy55]

know what, life is not based on the bible. We can never know what truly happen years ago. People lived for so long and they made rules as they went along.. who know what the truth is.

I always think there is something missing out there...

[tiger_rascal]

Dave, I need to correct you on something concerning your last post.

Peace-loving Christians would NOT hunt down anyone and slaughter them.

Anyone who does such a thing can call themselves Christians all they want, if they do such acts they are not following the teachings of Jesus Christ and thus are not Christians.

[db44]

At the time they thought they were being good Christians, as did the Christians in the Crusade. In fact, they all had the good wishes of the Popes of their time.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Very true, Dave. There is also a lot of smoting and killing in the Bible, all done in the name of God. Heck, doesn't the Bible say that God is a vengeful God? A jealous God? A God who should be feared?

And doesn't George Bush invoke God's name when justifying the war in Iraq?

[oldernow]

Dave, I am not trying to argue about this.
I never said that I didnt believe in fossils. It is true that there is no way that we tell for sure how old any fossil really is. I mean I am not making this stuff up. Science is a great tool but it cannot prove everything. You are choosing to believe in the fossil record that is made by scientists, and that is fine but you nor I can say for sure that they are correct in all there theory's. There are different opinions between scientists, and there is differences of opinion on just about everything.

The Bible has survived a long time. It has been matched up against other texts outside the Bible that records history and is very accurate. You know the archaelogy that has been recovered is enormous and it is amazing.

There are many races of people besides the indians who are not mentioned in the bible, but I do not understand why that would make them older than the Bible. Ok, you read that somewhere but does that make it true? Everything is on assumptions.

I really resent the peace loving Christians comment. It seems to be used by anyone who disagrees on anything we have to say. There are people from all walks of life who commit horendous acts. Not just so called Christians.

[oldernow]

Daisy, know what? The way we look at it the Bible is our Guide to life.

[oldernow]

For all their importance, isn't it surprising that only one text survives from the Judeo-Christian origins?
Yes isn't it? You know it is really cool looking into ancient history. Even if you have no use for the Bible it is very interesting in researching (in depth) of all the ancients texts we have. I would love to be able to see the differences and similiaraties of texts by different cultures. It would be interesting to see the history that Iraq has in it's possesion....

[db44]

And you don't think I resent always being told I'm a condemned man? :rolleyes: No, not every Christian is blood-thirsy, a majority these day I whole-heartedly believe aren't. But if you are going to talk about the past in this conversation, then you have to accept the past. To not do so is to contradict yourself. And in these cases in the past, Chrstians did what they could to erase the past of other civilizations. It's the Christian truth or no truth.

Do you also think I don't resent being told the Bible is "interesting research"? Do you think I could talk about the Bible if I didn't have a grasp about the Bible? Including knowing hypotheses about the writing of the book? I've read parts of the Bible (yes, only parts, but considering that most of those parts are the ones that come up in arguements, those parts seem to be enough) and I've studied about the Bible. But since I don't believe, I am told I have to research it more? feh.

Science has some exact points, even if you don't want to admit it. Back to the fossils. You don't want to believe the physical tests for the fossils? Then how about the fact that they are found bedrock untouched for thousands of years? How long do you think it takes for a bone to turn to fossil?

You are contradicting Earl here, when asking me how Native Americans are older than the Bible. Earl came up with the exact year of the Bible, saying it is 5,764, as derived from the Bible. Native American texts and societies physically go back further. Mind you, that was when people were living hundreds of years at a time, mainly because the Jewish calendar is a month short (just using that bit to show you some of my extra-curricular study of the Bible :rolleyes: ). As Earl said, Adam and Eve were year one. Factor in the Jewish calendar, there's 3700 years of short years... According to the Bible, Humankind goes back as far as about 3400 B.C. That's about as old as the pyramids, built by ten of (hundreds of?) thousands of people... That amount of people doesn't just spring up out of nowhere. The Clovis and some Chilean Indians date back to 11,000 B.C. plus! How do people exist befoer the start of time if the Bible is, as you say, accurate?

What bits of history tell you that the Bible is accurate for that matter?

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by oldernow
There are many races of people besides the indians who are not mentioned in the bible, but I do not understand why that would make them older than the Bible. Ok, you read that somewhere but does that make it true? Everything is on assumptions.



Not true. There are mounds and mounds of fossil evidence, scientific studies and dating techniques. Even if I were to concede to you that the dating techiniques are not 100% accurate, I would still believe the mountains of evidence for evolution before believing some fairy tale in a book for which there is absolutely no proof.

If you insist that your beliefs are based in faith, then I cannot argue with you. However, once you try to nullify scientific and archaeological evidence with faith, that's when I stop taking you seriously. Faith is faith; it requires no proof. Stick with your faith and leave science to the rest of us. You will never be able to refute hard evidence with faith.

[Leezard]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
My point is that it doesn't matter whether or not science can trace these fossils back to apes. These fossils DO exist. And they are not homo sapiens, but another species of hominids.

My questions are still unanswered. If these are not another race of man, then what are they? And do you just ignore that they exist because they don't fit your story of creation?

And my other question was not answered either. Do you believe there is no such thing as evolution, period? Not even today? Not among ANY living creatures?

I don't know about the other race thing you're talking about because I really have no opinion on what used to be or what we evolved from, I am more concerned with what we are today. I guess you could say I don't ignore them nor do I acknowledge them...

I do believe that there have been forms of evolution but I can't really comment on them either because I haven't studied that form of science enough to make an educated opinion.

Sorry I can't answer your questions better but I'm really not scientifically educated nor am I very interested in that kind of science. I don't know why your questions weren't answered by anyone else but I don't think it was because of some master plan to ignore them ;)

[young again]

Originally posted by db44
Science has some exact points, even if you don't want to admit it. Back to the fossils. You don't want to believe the physical tests for the fossils? Then how about the fact that they are found bedrock untouched for thousands of years? How long do you think it takes for a bone to turn to fossil?


God put the "fossils" there, just to test you. Now, don't you feel special? :rolleyes:

[db44]

Not really. If you are being serious, I don't accept that answer. I suppose then that the dinosaurs never existed? Or wooly mamouthes? Or sabertoothed tigers? All creatures which we have fossil evidence of, but have never seen with our own eyes.

[young again]

Next time I'll be sure to add a few ;) 's along with the :rolleyes: to be sure it's clear when I'm joking. :p

[db44]

You can never be too sure around here. Besides, I haven't posted in this forum in a looooong time.

[oldernow]

Do you also think I don't resent being told the Bible is "interesting research"?
Gee, i wasnt aware that that would be an insult to you. As much as you say you know the Bible wouldnt it be worth mentioning the amount of physical proof about the Bible and the people who lived at that time. Your asking me to accept everything your saying with out question, and I do accept that science is a valid tool. But do you have to poo,poo, everything I say? There is pleny of archaelogy evidence to support the Bible and the people who lived at that time. Rather than go into it the evidence, there really is no point because you seem to feel that what I say is rubbish.
In my opinion you are taking alot of what scientist say on faith especially when there is no solid proof. I know that you have plenty to say to me on how misguided I am, so feel free to do so. I am willing to listen to what you have to say but you continue to go into how Christians were blood thirsty and wiped out civilizations, when none of this has anything to do what we are talking about. If you are going to go into religious violence than be fair and look at all of them. Im done...

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by db44
At the time they thought they were being good Christians, as did the Christians in the Crusade. In fact, they all had the good wishes of the Popes of their time.

They were sadly mistaken. They did not represent the teachings of Jesus Christ. The "Christian" title was just that, a title, with no meaning.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by Leezard
I don't know about the other race thing you're talking about because I really have no opinion on what used to be or what we evolved from, I am more concerned with what we are today. I guess you could say I don't ignore them nor do I acknowledge them...

I do believe that there have been forms of evolution but I can't really comment on them either because I haven't studied that form of science enough to make an educated opinion.

Sorry I can't answer your questions better but I'm really not scientifically educated nor am I very interested in that kind of science. I don't know why your questions weren't answered by anyone else but I don't think it was because of some master plan to ignore them ;)

I don't think so either, Liz. :) But, thanks for responding. I'm really not trying to prove or disprove anything here. I am honestly just curious how Christians who totally believe in creationism deal with the evidence that is out there supporting evolution.

I do entertain the possibility that some force, or even some entity may have created from nothing this thing we call the universe. No, there is no proof, and that does bother me. Just because there is no proof doesn't mean something doesn't exist. But I cannot ignore the proof that is out there, and that simple fact keeps me from buying into creationism. If the Bible says the earth (perhaps the universe?) is only a few thousand years old, then what do we do with the evidence of creatures who existed up to 70 million years ago, for which there is fairly accurate carbon dating?

For example, I can go to the museum of natural history and see these creatures for myself. There have never been any human footprints found among the prints of dinosaurs. Again, while there is no absolute proof that dinosaurs and man did not exist at the same time, there is considerable evidence supporting it. As a rational, reasoning person, I just cannot simply ignore that evidence.

So my question is, how do Christians deal with the real evidence that creatures existed before the time that the Bible says the universe was created?

And getting back to the Ten Commandemnts, according to what I've read, there were actually two versions. Why has one been accepted over the other?

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
So, why is it that modern Christians have settled on the second version as the "correct" one? It seems to me that the version that God physically wrote himself would carry more weight than one that was dictated.

To put it in simplest form, because I have no other way of explaining it, its like amending a constitution, you would not follow the old one, you would follow the new one.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
To put it in simplest form, because I have no other way of explaining it, its like amending a constitution, you would not follow the old one, you would follow the new one.

Okay, I can understand that. Is that how it is explained in the Bible, that the second one is an amendment of the first? I don't remember the whole story, but I thought that Moses broke the first tablets (what was the reason again?) and the second ones were supposed to be just a replacement. If that's true, why were the two so different?

You know, if you could provide me with the verse and chapter, I'd actually like to read the story again for myself. Thanks. :)

[bluehorizonx10]

So my question is, how do Christians deal with the real evidence that creatures existed before the time that the Bible says the universe was created?


Double I'll try my best to explain how I feel it all happened and links together. I don't have much detail though to expound on. I'd love to have all this in our next Bible study because my pastor really has a knack for searching out scripture and history that relate and make so much sense. The Bible is a great tool as long as you try to understand it along with history and other studied Bible commentator's ideas all wound in together to make your own opinions. Yes, we still all have to make our own opinions, but with scripture along with our heart and conscience together.

I feel first off that God's time is not the same as ours. His one day could have been a billion years as time dated fossils are labeled. The creation of light could possibly have been millions of years from the time He created animals or man. And the dinosaurs, I believe, were created the same as any animal we see today. Consider Genesis 1:21 ".....great whales" and 1:24 ".....beast of the earth". Also Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days." That doesn't necessarily mean man being giant although later it was shown there were larger people in the lands. That could have meant giant of everything. The way I read it all is these history and archeology finds may very well relate directly with the Bible. I definitely don't believe any of what we're told is a fairytale. There is way too much truth shown to us to see it as a fairytale. And of course I totally believe and trust what God gave to us in His Word.

[bluehorizonx10]

Exodus, chapters 19 and 20 are the first ones. The second set, I believe, was written by Joshua in Joshua 8:30-35. Then of course they were repeated again by Jesus in the gospels.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
I feel first off that God's time is not the same as ours. His one day could have been a billion years as time dated fossils are labeled. The creation of light could possibly have been millions of years from the time He created animals or man. And the dinosaurs, I believe, were created the same as any animal we see today. Consider Genesis 1:21 ".....great whales" and 1:24 ".....beast of the earth". Also Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days." That doesn't necessarily mean man being giant although later it was shown there were larger people in the lands. That could have meant giant of everything. The way I read it all is these history and archeology finds may very well relate directly with the Bible. I definitely don't believe any of what we're told is a fairytale. There is way too much truth shown to us to see it as a fairytale. And of course I totally believe and trust what God gave to us in His Word.

Amen!

[oldernow]

Exodus 20:1-17. These are a verbal explanation of the commandments Moses was to tell the people.

Exodus 24:12
The LORD said to Moses, "Come up to me on the mountain and stay here, and I will give you the tablets of stone, with the law and commands I have written for their instruction."

Exodus 31:18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

Exodus 32:19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Im not sure if this is what you were speaking about Double, but in all instances the tablets were written by God.

[oldernow]

I dont believe there was any difference between the two as far as what the commandments were.

[bluehorizonx10]

Thanks Patty, she probably did mean those two sets. I was thinking of when Joshua wrote out the laws and commandments again as Moses had in the past from God for the people. He also read them out to remind the Israelites yet again of God's laws.

I didn't want to mislead anyone by my response earlier.

[Earl Purple]

Originally posted by db44
Not really. If you are being serious, I don't accept that answer. I suppose then that the dinosaurs never existed? Or wooly mamouthes? Or sabertoothed tigers? All creatures which we have fossil evidence of, but have never seen with our own eyes.

ok, I will answer your science with science.

It is well known that in scientist there is a principle of a "catalyst" - which makes a process occur faster than it would otherwise do naturally.

So back in the old days, possibly before the time of the flood or whenever, these catalysts were present so the fossils aged a lot quicker than they would do normally.

Other theories are that the creation was a new creation but the earth was already there because there had been previous creations, and the fossils are from one of those previous creations.

Alternatively, that the 6 days of creation were actually longer than present days. After all, the sun wasn't created until the 4th day so the day could not have been based on light from the sun.

[Earl Purple]

The two tablets of stone contained the 10 commandments in Exodus. Both versions were the same (the first tablets that Moses broke and the second one. The verse says "carve for yourself two tablets like the first"). But the first set (which Moses broke) were carved by G-d himself, while the second set were carved by Moses.

The stones on which Joshua and the people wrote contained the whole Torah (5 books of Moses) not just the 10 commandments.

The 10 commandments were repeated by Moses in Deuteronomy but had some differences.

One of the differences is in the 4th commandment. In Exodus it reads "Remember (Zachor) the Sabbath Day" and in Deuteronomy it says "Observe (Shamor) the Sabbath Day". They say that the words Zachor and Shamor were said in a single voice. These represent 2 aspects, the first is keeping the day as special and sanctifying it, and the 2nd as refraining from labour, although the 1st version also clearly states later that labour is forbidden. (By lying in bed all day on the Sabbath you would not be doing any labour but you would not be sanctifying the day).

[oldernow]

The verse says "carve for yourself two tablets like the first"). But the first set (which Moses broke) were carved by G-d himself, while the second set were carved by Moses.
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.
I believe it says that God himself will write on them himself.

[oldernow]

Alternatively, that the 6 days of creation were actually longer than present days. After all, the sun wasn't created until the 4th day so the day could not have been based on light from the sun.
Actually It was the third day.
Genesis 1:3
Then God said let ther be light and there was light.

[db44]

So the first six days lasted 1.5 thousand years each?I guess a little more , as the creatures weren't created on the firstday... So what of the people who say a day is a day?

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
Double I'll try my best to explain how I feel it all happened and links together. I don't have much detail though to expound on. I'd love to have all this in our next Bible study because my pastor really has a knack for searching out scripture and history that relate and make so much sense. The Bible is a great tool as long as you try to understand it along with history and other studied Bible commentator's ideas all wound in together to make your own opinions. Yes, we still all have to make our own opinions, but with scripture along with our heart and conscience together.

I feel first off that God's time is not the same as ours. His one day could have been a billion years as time dated fossils are labeled. The creation of light could possibly have been millions of years from the time He created animals or man. And the dinosaurs, I believe, were created the same as any animal we see today. Consider Genesis 1:21 ".....great whales" and 1:24 ".....beast of the earth". Also Genesis 6:4 "There were giants in the earth in those days." That doesn't necessarily mean man being giant although later it was shown there were larger people in the lands. That could have meant giant of everything. The way I read it all is these history and archeology finds may very well relate directly with the Bible. I definitely don't believe any of what we're told is a fairytale. There is way too much truth shown to us to see it as a fairytale. And of course I totally believe and trust what God gave to us in His Word.

Okay, Gail, I've given your answer some thought. Thanks for sharing your beliefs with me.

I don't have any trouble considering that God's time is not the same as our time. Eastern thought sees time as existing without boundaries, unlike western thought where time is linear. In the story, indeed, creation may have taken place over billions of years.

But what happened after creation? If we believe the Bible and only a few thousand years have passed since the creation, then shouldn't all of those animals still be alive today? In your scenario, then, did God create and then wipe out the dinosaurs during the "six days" of creation? And what of animals that have evolved since the creation?

Even more troubling, if I am to believe that creation took place some 6,000 years ago in our time, how is it that entire civilizations were on the earth at that time? If one believes that Adam and Eve were the first humans, I just can't see any logical way that thousands and thousands of people were on the earth the day after the creation. In other words, I cannot logically compress all science knows about civilization on the earth into a mere 6,000 or so years. It just doesn't make sense.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
Exodus, chapters 19 and 20 are the first ones. The second set, I believe, was written by Joshua in Joshua 8:30-35. Then of course they were repeated again by Jesus in the gospels.

Thanks again Gail. Okay.. I read the Exodus chapters, but now I'm even more confused. In Exodus 34, there seems to be an entirely different set of commandments. I tried to number them and then I found this summary:

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4. All the first-born sons are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
8. Three times in the year, all the males will appear before God.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother’s milk. (what?)

It also states that Moses wrote these with his own hand (Exodus 34:28), unlike in the previous story, where God physically wrote on the tablets with his finger. Then the story goes on to say that Moses brought these tablets down from the mountain and gave the people all these commandments.

So, what is this?

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
And what of animals that have evolved since the creation?

Is there any scientific evidence that proves even one animal has evolved?

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
Is there any scientific evidence that proves even one animal has evolved?

Yes, there is. Read anything by Stephen J. Gould. And there is an entire branch of science called Cryptozoology that has discovered new creatures for which there is no prior fossil evidence. There is a giraffe that is short-necked that has evolved fairly quickly to take advantage of trees that are not as tall as normal giraffes' food source. There is a new species of domestic cat, called a munchkin, that has only been around for the past 20 years or so.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
But what happened after creation? If we believe the Bible and only a few thousand years have passed since the creation, then shouldn't all of those animals still be alive today? In your scenario, then, did God create and then wipe out the dinosaurs during the "six days" of creation? And what of animals that have evolved since the creation?

Even more troubling, if I am to believe that creation took place some 6,000 years ago in our time, how is it that entire civilizations were on the earth at that time? If one believes that Adam and Eve were the first humans, I just can't see any logical way that thousands and thousands of people were on the earth the day after the creation. In other words, I cannot logically compress all science knows about civilization on the earth into a mere 6,000 or so years. It just doesn't make sense.

The dinosaurs could have been wiped out by the flood.

6,000 years is a mighty long time. I can see civilizations begin and die within that time.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
The dinosaurs could have been wiped out by the flood.

6,000 years is a mighty long time. I can see civilizations begin and die within that time.

Okay, then what about the sea-going creatures that were wiped out at the same time? Did they drown in the flood?

And there is archaelogical evidence.. tons of it.. that document civilizations much older than 6,000 years.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Thanks again Gail. Okay.. I read the Exodus chapters, but now I'm even more confused. In Exodus 34, there seems to be an entirely different set of commandments. I tried to number them and then I found this summary:

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4. All the first-born sons are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
8. Three times in the year, all the males will appear before God.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother’s milk. (what?)

It also states that Moses wrote these with his own hand (Exodus 34:28), unlike in the previous story, where God physically wrote on the tablets with his finger. Then the story goes on to say that Moses brought these tablets down from the mountain and gave the people all these commandments.

So, what is this?

I checked both the KJV and the NIV Bible and both say that the Lord will write them.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. KJV

The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke. NIV

I could be missing something.

Exodus 34:28 " Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.

What I get from that is that Moses wrote on the tablets "the Ten Commandments".

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal

Exodus 34:28 " Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-the Ten Commandments.

What I get from that is that Moses wrote on the tablets "the Ten Commandments".

Read the verse right before that. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words..."

And one more question.. is God ever referred to as "he" in the Bible?

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Okay, then what about the sea-going creatures that were wiped out at the same time? Did they drown in the flood?

And there is archaelogical evidence.. tons of it.. that document civilizations much older than 6,000 years.

No, God wiped them out, it could be that easy. God is the Creator afterall. It says that everything on the earth that was not on Noahs Ark died.

Supposedly 6,000 years. Who knows really? Astronomers are still debating the age of the earth, solar system and universe. They come up with different numbers every time. No matter what number they come up with next, it wont matter, because they cant really prove it for a fact.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Read the verse right before that. "And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words..."

And one more question.. is God ever referred to as "he" in the Bible?

Ok, perhaps God helped Moses. I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired. And yes, God has been referred to as he in the Bible.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
No, God wiped them out, it could be that easy. God is the Creator afterall. It says that everything on the earth that was not on Noahs Ark died.

Supposedly 6,000 years. Who knows really? Astronomers are still debating the age of the earth, solar system and universe. They come up with different numbers every time. No matter what number they come up with next, it wont matter, because they cant really prove it for a fact.

First, there is no way anyone can convince me that every single animal that exists today was on the Ark. Case in point, new species that were not alive at that time in history.

Second, carbon dating is extremely accurate up to 70 million years. So, there is proof of civilizations older than 6000 years.

[tiger_rascal]

Exodus 34:27 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel."

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
Ok, perhaps God helped Moses. I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired. And yes, God has been referred to as he in the Bible.

When God is referred to as "he," isn't it always a capital 'He?"

Maybe God helped Moses? Well, that's not what it says.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
I feel first off that God's time is not the same as ours. His one day could have been a billion years as time dated fossils are labeled. The creation of light could possibly have been millions of years from the time He created animals or man.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
Exodus 34:27 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel."

Yes, I understand the quote. He told Moses to write these words. But the first set of commandments, in Exodus 28, it clearly states that God wrote them with his finger. There is a difference.

[tiger_rascal]

If He wanted Moses to write down His words, so be it. Nothing wrong with that.

And he is not always capitalized in the Bible when referring to God. Read the first chapter in Genesis.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I think we've gotten off track somewhat. My question is why two different versions of the Ten Commandments?

[Leezard]

I don't know why there are two different ones...could have been something changed between them but I really don't know.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Yeah, exactly Liz. lol.. they are quite different. And I was wondering how Christians came to accept the first version as the definitive Ten Commandments, and when that happened.

[tiger_rascal]

I could be mistaken, and I would greatly appreciate it if someone will correct me if Im wrong, but the commandments in Exodus 34 are the only commandments titled the Ten Commandments.

So technically, there is only one version of the Ten Commandments.

I could be wrong though, so dont quote me.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
I could be mistaken, and I would greatly appreciate it if someone will correct me if Im wrong, but the commandments in Exodus 34 are the only commandments titled the Ten Commandments.

So technically, there is only one version of the Ten Commandments.

I could be wrong though, so dont quote me.

That's true, so then why do Christians call the first set the "official" Ten Commandments?

[tiger_rascal]

Thats a good question and I apologize for not being able to answer that for you.

Im a Christian that tries to live by Gods Word, so there are not just 10 commandments for me, but hundreds!

[DoubleEdgeSword]

No, it's okay Chad.. I'm just curious about it. I thought someone here who has perhaps studied the question may be able to give me an answer.

Sheesh.. I've read more of the Bible in the past few months than in, well.. maybe my entire life. lol

[bluehorizonx10]

Then maybe there is a good reason for all these questions Double. I honestly have to talk and read some about all this. I'll try to help you all find answers and I'll post as I find out anything. Mabye others can answer before me.

[bluehorizonx10]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Thanks again Gail. Okay.. I read the Exodus chapters, but now I'm even more confused. In Exodus 34, there seems to be an entirely different set of commandments. I tried to number them and then I found this summary:

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4. All the first-born sons are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
8. Three times in the year, all the males will appear before God.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother’s milk. (what?)

It also states that Moses wrote these with his own hand (Exodus 34:28), unlike in the previous story, where God physically wrote on the tablets with his finger. Then the story goes on to say that Moses brought these tablets down from the mountain and gave the people all these commandments.

So, what is this?

Double I'll try to help us understand this better. But the list above is really not a list of the Ten Commandments. That's exactly one reason I strictly stick to my KJV of the Bible itself and don't search other places for answers unless I add other trusted works or books to the basic Bible text. That's how we all get confused in the end.

In Exodus 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying

Then He goes on to tell Moses the very important ten commandments He wants the Israelites to follow and as well all the children of God forever. These are the true commandments and are never changed from these.

Exodus 24:12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

He also includes laws in these commandments as well. This is where some of the further instructions and additions to the basic ten commandments are.

EXodus 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

He in the Bible doesn't have to be capitalized indicating God or His Son in either the OT or the NT.

Also you'll find scripture in Deuteronomy 10:1-4 At that time the Lord said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me in to the mount, and make thee an ark of wood. And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark. And I made an ark of ****tim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand. And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments which the Lord spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me.

Moses is speaking in the first tense here. So the I was himself and the he was God. God wrote the tablets both times. They were the same commandments and laws as the first. He verbally told Moses the first time the basic ten commandments.

[Earl Purple]

Originally posted by oldernow
Exodus 34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.
I believe it says that God himself will write on them himself.

correct, the words on the stones were carved by G-d but the stones themselves were carved by Moses.

The first set were totally carved by G-d.

[Earl Purple]

Originally posted by oldernow
Actually It was the third day.
Genesis 1:3
Then God said let ther be light and there was light.

No, light was created on the 1st day (1:3). The sun and the moon on the 4th. (1:14)

[Leezard]

Originally posted by Earl Purple
correct, the words on the stones were carved by G-d but the stones themselves were carved by Moses.

The first set were totally carved by G-d.

I'm curious, why do you put a - in God?

[Earl Purple]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Thanks again Gail. Okay.. I read the Exodus chapters, but now I'm even more confused. In Exodus 34, there seems to be an entirely different set of commandments. I tried to number them and then I found this summary:

1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep.
4. All the first-born sons are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work, but on the seventh thou shalt rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, even of the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread.
8. Three times in the year, all the males will appear before God.
9. The first of the first fruits of thy ground thou shalt bring unto the house of the Lord thy God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother’s milk. (what?)

It also states that Moses wrote these with his own hand (Exodus 34:28), unlike in the previous story, where God physically wrote on the tablets with his finger. Then the story goes on to say that Moses brought these tablets down from the mountain and gave the people all these commandments.

So, what is this?

There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament. Maybe you can find them enumerated online somewhere.

Not seething a kid in its mother's milk is actually a general law not to cook meat and dairy together, which is why all kosher kitchens have two sets of pans, cutlery and crockery, and why you find labels next to some of the (U) symbols on products describing if they are dairy etc. Pareve (or Parev or Parve) means there is no meat or milk in a product.

Sometimes you see a P next to the symbol. That means it contains no leavened ingredients and is suitable to be eaten on Passover (the feast of unleavened bread - nowhere in the Torah is it referred to as the Pesach festival).

(6) on your list is 2 commandments, one for the Festival of Weeks (Shavuot) and one for the harvest ingathering festival (Sukkot, on the 15th day of the 7th month).

[Earl Purple]

Hebrew doesn't have capital letters. There are some oversized and some undersized letters in the text that appear on rare occasions.

In Hebrew every noun is either masculine or feminine, so there is no word for "it".

[Earl Purple]

I write G-d so as not to be possibly writing the name in vain, even though it is only a translation.

[bluehorizonx10]

That's a very interesting explanation Earl. It shows respect I'd say in the least. Thanks for telling us.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by Earl Purple
There are 613 commandments in the Old Testament. Maybe you can find them enumerated online somewhere.

Not seething a kid in its mother's milk is actually a general law not to cook meat and dairy together, which is why all kosher kitchens have two sets of pans, cutlery and crockery, and why you find labels next to some of the (U) symbols on products describing if they are dairy etc. Pareve (or Parev or Parve) means there is no meat or milk in a product.

Sometimes you see a P next to the symbol. That means it contains no leavened ingredients and is suitable to be eaten on Passover (the feast of unleavened bread - nowhere in the Torah is it referred to as the Pesach festival).

(6) on your list is 2 commandments, one for the Festival of Weeks (Shavuot) and one for the harvest ingathering festival (Sukkot, on the 15th day of the 7th month).

Thanks for that explanation, Earl. Can you possible explain why today's Christians recognize just one set of the 10 Commandments? Actually, aren't there two versions? The Catholics have a slightly different version, don't they?

[Earl Purple]

The significance of the "10 commandments" is that their giving was witnessed by all the people, and these commandments were written on the tablets of stone.

These also re-affirmed the commandments given to all nations.

There is no other official set of 10 commandments, though Moses did recall the 10 commandments in Deuteronomy and the wording there is different. I went through that in an earlier post. The wording on the stones was that in Exodus. The whole book of Deuteronomy were read by the king every 7 years and the whole Torah was written onto the stones as mentioned in Joshua.

I can't speak for Catholics and what they keep and why. One thing is certain though about our priests and Catholic priests - our priests are expected to get married and have children. Aaron was the first priest (of the Israelite nation) and had 4 sons (although 2 of them died) and there are many of his descendents (Cohanim) still around today.

It's true that there is no temple service, but they still have to try to remain Tahor (usually translated as "pure" though it's not a good translation) and therefore have to keep away from cemeteries. And they still bless the people in the same way as mentioned in Numbers.

[oldernow]

Creation

Heb 11:3 It is by faith that we understand that the universe was created by God's word, so that what can be seen was made out of what cannot be seen.

Romans 4:17 as the scripture says, "I have made you father of many nations." So the promise is good in the sight of God, in whom Abraham believed---the God who brings the dead to life and whose command brings into being what did not exist.


EFFECTED By God

Gen 1:1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 2:4 And that is how the universe was created. When the LORD God made the universe,

Gen 2:5 there were no plants on the earth and no seeds had sprouted, because he had not sent any rain, and there was no one to cultivate the land;

By Christ

Joh 1:3 Through him God made all things; not one thing in all creation was made without him.

Col 1:16 For through him God created everything in heaven and on earth, the seen and the unseen things, including spiritual powers, lords, rulers, and authorities. God created the whole universe through him and for him.

In six normal days

Exodus 20:11 In six days I, the LORD, made the earth, the sky, the seas, and everything in them, but on the seventh day I rested. That is why I, the LORD, blessed the Sabbath and made it holy.

Exo 31:17 It is a permanent sign between the people of Israel and me, because I, the LORD, made heaven and earth in six days, and on the seventh day I stopped working and rested."

[oldernow]

Gen 1:31 God looked at everything he had made, and he was very pleased. Evening passed and morning came---that was the sixth day.

Rom 1:20 Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!

Isa 40:26 Look up at the sky! Who created the stars you see? The one who leads them out like an army, he knows how many there are and calls each one by name! His power is so great--- not one of them is ever missing!

Isa 40:28 Don't you know? Haven't you heard? The LORD is the everlasting God; he created all the world. He never grows tired or weary. No one understands his thoughts.

Psa 19:1 How clearly the sky reveals God's glory! How plainly it shows what he has done!

Psa 104:24 LORD, you have made so many things! How wisely you made them all! The earth is filled with your creatures.

Isa 45:18 The LORD created the heavens--- he is the one who is God! He formed and made the earth--- he made it firm and lasting. He did not make it a desolate waste, but a place for people to live. It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god.

Act 17:24 God, who made the world and everything in it, is Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands.

Nehemiah 9:6 And then the people of Israel prayed this prayer: "You, LORD, you alone are LORD; you made the heavens and the stars of the sky. You made land and sea and everything in them; you gave life to all. The heavenly powers bow down and worship you.

Psa 146:6 the Creator of heaven, earth, and sea, and all that is in them. He always keeps his promises;

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by Earl Purple
There is no other official set of 10 commandments, though Moses did recall the 10 commandments in Deuteronomy and the wording there is different.

I'm still confused. Why is the wording different in different books of the Bible? And why is the wording different on the two tablets? If there is only one official set of commandments, then why isn't there just one official set in the Bible?

The only scripture I've read that acutally says "Ten Commandments" is Exodus 34, but that is NOT the wording on what I've seen as commonly accepted as the Ten Commandments.

I'm not trying to be obtuse here, I truly don't understand.

Edit: And now I'm even more confused. Matthew 19:18,19. There are only six commandments that Jesus says. So, what happened to the other four?

[tiger_rascal]

Perhaps it would help to look at the NT. I need to read up on what commandments Jesus kept. Technically, Jesus came to uphold the old law, but He also changed some things. Jesus had that power, he was God. Whatever Jesus says in the NT is good enough for me. And like I said earlier, I dont have just 10 commandments to follow, I have Gods Word to follow, Jesus Christ.

The 10 Commandments that are often framed today are great to live by, but I also get the sense they are often just for looks, to pretty up a wall.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I did. Matthew 19:18,19. There are only six commandments. These were given directly by Jesus.

[tiger_rascal]

Im sorry, I was speaking to myself when I said that about looking at the NT. I noticed the scripture you posted and decided I needed to look at the NT myself. :biggrin:

[DoubleEdgeSword]

ohh.. lol. okay Chad. Yeah, I do that too. lol :D

[Mattio]

Ay carumba

[oldernow]

Ten Commandments said
1.Exodus 20:3 You shall have no other Gods before me"

Jesus said
1. Mathew 4:10 "Worship the Lord your God and serve him only"


Ten Commandments said
2. Exodus 20:4 You shall not make for yourself and Idol

Jesus said
2. Luke 16:13 "No servant can serve two masters"

Ten Commandments said
3. Exodus 20:7 You shall misuse the name of the Lord your God"

Jesus said
3. Mathew 5:34 Do not swear at all by heaven, for it is Gods Throne.[i/]

Ten Commandments said
4. Exodus 20:8 [i]Remember the Sabath and keep it holy

Jesus said
4. Mark 2:27,28
he Sabath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

Ten Commandments said
5.Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder

Jesus said
5.Matthew 5:22 Anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement.

Ten Commandments said
6. Exodus 20:14 You shall not commit adultery

Jesus said
6. Matthew 5:28 Anyone who looks at a women lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Ten Commandments said
7. Exodus20:16you shall not give false testimony

Jesus said
7.Matthew 12:36
Men will have to give account on the day of judgement for every careless word they have spoken.


Ten Commandments said
8. Exodus 20:17 You shal not covet.

Jesus said
8.Luke 12:15 Be on your guard against all kinds of greed

[Earl Purple]

The laws in Exodus 34, verses 11-26 are not the 10 commandments, but they are part of the written Torah, and Moses was instructed to write those words too - thus they are part of the Torah.

The 10 commandments include the 3 for which you should give up your life rather than commit - those are the 2nd, 6th and 7th commandments. (Idolatory, murder and adultery).

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I thought the 10 Commandments were the ones written on the stone tablets. Am I missing that part in Exodus 20? Exodus 20 just says God spoke to Moses and said to tell the people these words. I don't see anything about them written on stone tablets.

I see other commandments written on two sets of tablets later on in Exodus 34, but again, some of them are different from Exodus 20. And the ones in Exodus 34 ARE specifically called the Ten Commandments.

Sorry, I'm still not clear about this.

And, These two just don't match.
Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder
Matthew 5:22 Anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgement.

Getting mad with your brother has nothing to do with not murdering. The word nor any reference to murder is mentioned in that second scripture.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Okay, let me see if I can rephrase this so I will understand and I hope someone else will and be able to give me an answer.

The Ten Commandments as we know them (Exodus 20) were NOT written on stone tablets, and they are NOT called the "ten commandments" in that scripture.

So, who decided that these were the "official" ten commandments, and when was that decided?

[oldernow]

Sorry about that, it should have included the verse before it.

Matthew 5:21-22

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,[1] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,[3] ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

[oldernow]

Double, I read in my Bible that it says the Ten Commandments, so I dont know what Earl is saying.f

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Ahhh.. gothca. Thanks for clearing that up.

Is there anywhere in the NT that Jesus gives the 10 Commandments all in one place? I mean the ones that Christians these days accept as "official."

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by oldernow
Double, I read in my Bible that it says the Ten Commandments, so I dont know what Earl is saying.f

It says in your Bible specifically that the ones in Exodus 20 are the 10 Commandments? Or is it Exodus 34 that says that?

[oldernow]

Im going to look at that now.. Be right back...

[oldernow]

Ok this is what it says in exodus 34.

Exodus 34:27
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." 28 Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant-theTen Commandments.


Still looking at 20...

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Right. That's what I have in Exodus 34, but I couldn't find anything in Ex20.

[oldernow]

Exodus 20 says that these are the Ten Commandments.
In my opinion Exodus 34 is similiar but is being explained in detail.
I will have to give it study time. I promise that I will get to it tomorrow my head is in need of sleep.

[tiger_rascal]

It depends on what Bible you have.

I have the KJV, there are no titles at the top of the chapters. My older sister has the NIV and Exodus 20 is titled 10 Commandments. Although, the Ten Commandments are never mentioned anywhere in scripture in Exodus 20, only Exodus 34.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I have the KJV too and it only says 10 Commandments in Exodus 34.

Also, what about the stone tablets? Mine doesn't have those in Exodus 20 either.

[oldernow]

Double, this is really a very good question. I do see that it doesn't specifically say in exodus 20 that they are the Ten Commandments.


Ok Take a look at these
Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 10:4

Deuteronomy 5:1-22

Still looking...........

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Alright, well Deuteronomy 5:1-22 does spell out the commandments as we know them, and it does say they were written on stone tablets by God and given to Moses. So, I'm assuming these were the first tablets that Moses broke. The second tablets, that Moses claimed that God dictated to him were called the ten commandments, but were different than these.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Oh man.. my eyes won't stay open. I can't read anymore tonight. Tomorrow I'll look at it all more closely. I'm determined to figure this out. lol

Goodnight all. :)

[Mattio]

Might I recommend some viewing? I know I usually take the mick, but this is genuinely educational - Animals, by Ricky Gervais.

[Earl Purple]

Exodus 34:1
HASHEM said to Moses: "Carve for yourself two stone tablets like the first ones, and I shall inscribe on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets, which you shattered.

Exodus 34:27
HASHEM said to Moses: "Write these words for yourself, for according to these words have I sealed a covenant with you and Israel".

34:1 specifies what was written on the tablets of stone - the same as was on the first ones.

34:27 does not say where the words were written, but does say that Moses wrote those words down, whereas the words on the tablets were inscribed by G-d himself.

[tiger_rascal]

I think Moses needed anger management. He was technically the first to break Gods Ten Commandments, literally!

[bluehorizonx10]

And that anger kept him from entering the Promised Land too. God did chastize him for his mistakes even though he was the one man whom God trusted to give those precious Ten Commandments to.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I found this interesting article:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10c4.htm

Depending upon how the Ten Commandments starting at Exodus 20:2-17 are interpreted, they contain a total of 19 to 25 separate instructions. These have been traditionally sorted into ten groups. Unfortunately, various faith groups sort them differently.

The Ten Commandments are accepted by Judaism and Christianity as a summary of the important rules of behavior that God expects of humanity. They are only a brief summary of certain rules. They do not directly address some of the most active of today's moral controversies, such as abortion, corporal punishment of children, the death penalty, equal rights for homosexuals, physician assisted suicide, pre-marital sex, etc. They are supplemented by 603 other rules and regulations elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament).

Although the ten commandments are held in high respect by many Christians, two of them are routinely broken by some Christian denominations -- at least when they are interpreted literally:

The prohibition against "any graven image, or any likeness of any thing...," if interpreted literally, would seem to forbid a wide range of objects, including a statue in a church, a cross, a crucifix, or even to a photograph of a person. However, many denominations do not interpret this passage in isolation or do not interpret it literally. This allows Eastern Orthodox churches to display icons, Roman Catholic churches to house statues, and many Protestant churches to contain drawings and/or photographs.

Reserving the Sabbath (Saturday) as a day of rest. The vast majority of churches have their main services on Sunday. Only sabbaterian denominations, like the Seventh Day Adventists and Seventh Day Baptists, celebrate on Saturday.

There is a gap between what the Ten Commandments actually state, and what the public perceives that they say. Most people incorrectly believe that the Commandments all govern moral behavior in society: to not lie, steal, commit adultery, etc. In reality, the first four commandments are religious in nature, uniquely related to Judeo-Christianity. They are offensive to the followers of many other religions. Only six relate to moral behavior in society.

**************
And then there is this link http://www.therain.org/studies/ten.html
It has several versions of the commandments from different versions of the Bible. Go to the bottom and there are links.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Only six relate to moral behavior in society.

Only six? 6 out of 10 is good. :)

[DoubleEdgeSword]

You know, in researching this stuff, I wondered why it is that Christians do not observe the day of rest. Why is that? I mean, can you just pick and choose which commandments to follow?

[tiger_rascal]

Jesus healed on the Sabbath. John 5

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Okay, got it. Thanks, Chad. Jesus said it was okay. So then why is it still in the commandments?

And what about making images? Did Jesus say Christians could make statues and paintings and such?

[tiger_rascal]

We can have art, of course, but we can not worship that art. :)

[tiger_rascal]

This may be helpful.

Hebrews 4 NIV

A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God

Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.' "And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; or anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-_edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Jesus the Great High Priest

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Hmm.. lol. well, that didn't really help, Chad. But thanks. I don't understand if Jesus said it was okay to work on the day of rest then why was that included in the accepted version of the 10 Commandments? Why not pick another one since Jesus pretty much rendered that one invalid?

[tiger_rascal]

The Ten Commandments still holds true for many people though, not just Christians.

Im a Christian that looks at the Ten Commandments that people hang on their walls as a historical reference to Gods first commandments, a reminder if you will, but that we have many commandments to uphold and Jesus is our Savior. If we have accepted Jesus, we have nothing to worry about.

[bluehorizonx10]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
You know, in researching this stuff, I wondered why it is that Christians do not observe the day of rest. Why is that? I mean, can you just pick and choose which commandments to follow?

What do you call not resting on the Sabbath? I don't believe in working on Sunday unless as it states in Matthew 12:1-13. There are situations that require it. As Jesus instructed us....to heal or help others and to feed our family for examples. I don't do any chores on Sunday that can be done another day. This is our church day even though we don't have evening services at our church. So I feel at our church we do try to follow that commandment and certainly in my family we do. I can't speak for others.

[bluehorizonx10]

Double, when Jesus came to save the world from their sins He gave us all many things to think about. Since He was God in the flesh He came here to teach us the ways of salvation, the right and wrong, if you will. He taught by example. He ate with the publicans and sinners. He offered mercy to the worst of sinners. He drove devils out of the wretched and healed leporsy, one of the diseases forbidden to be around. He healed the woman with a blood issue, othewise these wowen were kept away from others during these times. He showed us all what is right and wrong with the blood of Christ as the cleansing power. He showed us all we are sinners and always will be, but we have one option to change that........believe on Him and be saved. By His precious blood we are washed white as snow with no stains on our souls when we stand in front of God on the great judgement day.

*clears throat* :o Sorry, didn't mean to preach here. But you get the gist of what I'm saying. The laws of God to the Israelites were changed somewhat when Jesus came to save us. He, God, showed us the way, the truth, and the light through His Son, Jesus Christ.

[oldernow]

Jesus said,
Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

The Ten Commandments were repeated in the New testament. Dont commit muder, no adultery, do not covet, no lying or accusing falsely, no steeling, honor your parents, love God with all your heart, do not worship any other God, (Idols included) the sabbath was the only one that was not required.

The difference is that we are no longer judged by the law alone. The law is a guideline if you will for us to follow. We are judged by faith, and not the law. The law should still be observed but we are not judged by it. If we were to be judged by the law, none of us would have eternal life. Now we are forgiven by the blood of Christ, if we accept Him.

God commanded Israel to observe the Sabbath so that they would remember that while in Egypt they had no rest but that He had delivered them from their bondage and given them a day of rest (Deuteronomy 5:15). It was to be a sign between them and God so that they would never forget that it was He who had delivered them and sanctified them as a people for His possession (Exodus 31:13-17).

We were never delivered from Egyptian bondage. Thus, they we are never commanded to keep it or any other command contained in the law God gave to Israel through Moses.

God intended that the Jews were no longer to the observe Sabbath.


Jesus fulfilled the Old LawMatthew 5:17), it was taken out of way and nailed to the cross (Galatians 5:1-4; Colossians 2:14). Jesus came to establish His new law, the "perfect law . (James 1:25). Since Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth (Matthew 28:18), everyone must obey His law. It does not include any command to keep the Sabbath.

[tiger_rascal]

This has turned out to be quite an interesting thread. :biggrin:

[DoubleEdgeSword]

As a child growing up in a medium sized town in the South, I remember that on Sundays no businesses were open. Of course, over the years that changed. I wonder then if the change is due more to economics than to the 10 Commandments. After all, if Jesus negated the Sabbath commandment, then why were stores closed in the first place?

Chad, I agree with you. There are so many differently worded versions of the commandments. Seeing them in an historical context makes more sense. Although some of the commandments were adopted into western law, as the article Misty originally posted points out, several of the commandments directly voilate the constiution.


Just another note... I remember how creepy it was watching those believers crying, praying, lying on the ground in front of that representation of the commandments at the Alabama courthouse. It was as if they were worshiping the monument.

[bluehorizonx10]

Just another note... I remember how creepy it was watching those believers crying, praying, lying on the ground in front of that representation of the commandments at the Alabama courthouse. It was as if they were worshiping the monument.

I felt that way too when I saw that scene. It made you wonder where their heart was at.......for God or for the scene they would portray for the media.

It just goes to show there are extremists in everything. But I'm glad that historical monument wasn't put in a basement from people's view.

The commandments were given by God. Whether we change them in our minds, or on paper, or even on the internet they are still and will remain the same. We can search the Bible through and read one person's or theologist's interpretation after another, but the fact remains we all know right from wrong. That's why God gave them to Moses to begin with. He spoke them as it wa