I'm not a Christian anymore

[butterfly]

Just thought I'd pop back and give you all an update. I'm not afraid of those people from dotmusic anymore, I don't care what they do to me.

The thing I've been struggling with for some time is the idea that only Christians get to go to Heaven, and everyone else goes to Hell. I've spent ages trying to interpret it all in a more merciful way and there's just no way around it. I don't think it's a fair system.

Then there's the idea that people who've never heard of Jesus get judged on their actions. Now that's a much fairer system. So it would be much better if people stopped spreading the word and just shut up.

A lot of people I care about aren't Christians, and if they're not going to Heaven, I don't want to go either. I'm trying to convince myself that the resurrection didn't really happen, so that I can go to Hell with all the decent non-judgemental people, in the name of solidarity.

Love to you all.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

That's the same problem (among others) I've had with Christianity, and that's the reason I gave up on it years and years ago. Hitler could be in heaven if he repented and accepted Jesus, but Gandhi can't? Yes, not fair at all.

[butterfly]

Yeah, I did try to kid myself that I didn't have to believe in that bit, but the deeper I got into it, the more I realised that it's just impossible to get round it.

I'd rather have a system where we were judged on actions rather than belief, but I still wouldn't be happy unless we had a system where we weren't judged at all. Love should be unconditional, there should be no catch.

If I do end up going to Hell, I reckon that despite the agony of it, at least the company will be good. We'll be united in suffering, and we'll probably have a few good conversations and make some good friendships between the screams.

[tiger_rascal]

Your last paragraph was a bit disturbing.

Just remember, Jesus is still there for you, for everyone, whenever you need Him. Thats one thing that I do not understand. Its so simple, quite possibly the easiest, most simple religion there is. Accept Jesus Christ and spend eternity in Heaven. Sure, there are a few simple moral guidlines to live by which some of us live by anyway.

butterfly, if I may give you a word of advice. I have family and friends who do not believe either. I care for them, very, very much, which causes me to believe in the mercy of Jesus Christ even more and to live my life the way Jesus would want to be a witness to my family, friends and the world.

[butterfly]

I don't understand it either. It is simple. The problem is that humans aren't simple. There will always be people who either don't believe or believe something different. I think they should be forgiven for that just like anything else.

I wrote a poem just now actually. I'd better only post the first two verses here though.

Too nice to be a Christian,
I can't join in the song,
That tells all other religions,
They are completely wrong.

I can't imagine a loving God
Unable to perceive,
We all deserve eternal life,
Even if we don't believe.

There are reasons why I shouldn't post the rest of it here, trust me.

[tiger_rascal]

Its a free gift, some choose not to accept it.

[butterfly]

What about people who are suspicious of free gifts because of mental trauma brought on by a related incident in their past?

[tiger_rascal]

Look at it another way. A life for many lives. Jesus died for everyone, that is how much He loves us. Its whether you believe that or not.

[butterfly]

But it's only theoretically everyone. In practice, it's a gamble we all take. Out of all the religions there are, one has to be right and the others are wrong. The majority of people in the world aren't Christians, so the majority are going to Hell. I don't get what's so merciful about that.

I've had so much condradictory stuff thrown at me since I let myself get dragged into this that it's really spoilt my appreciation of life. I just want to go to sleep and never wake up. I used to want to live forever but I don't anymore.

[pinky]

Butterfly, welcome back!

To reply to your thread, I consider myself a Christian, but I also don't think that only Christians will be allowed to enter into Heaven. Yes, I know the Scripture, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." However, I believe with all my heart that Jesus intended that "through" Him meant by living a life consistent with His teaching.

Those of other faiths who live lives according to the principle of love have as much right to enter Heaven, and as great a chance of doing so as the rest of us.

Which, of course, means only by the grace and mercy of an all-loving, all-forgiving God.

[MerrySunshine]

I understand your struggles. I think all Christians have been there too at one time or another. Maybe this will help:

The mercy is that everyone should be going to hell, but God, in his grace and mercy, has provided a way to be saved from hell if the person will choose to take that way. That's mercy -- getting something even if you don't deserve it. No person -- not even the most pious Christian -- deserves eternal life. But God provided a way to get what we don't deserve. It's not that everyone deserves eternal life and God sets up roadblocks keeping some from it; it's that everyone deserves eternal darkness in hell and God has provided a way for everyone to escape it if they choose to take the escape route.

[MerrySunshine]

Originally posted by pinky
Butterfly, welcome back!

To reply to your thread, I consider myself a Christian, but I also don't think that only Christians will be allowed to enter into Heaven. Yes, I know the Scripture, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." However, I believe with all my heart that Jesus intended that "through" Him meant by living a life consistent with His teaching.

Those of other faiths who live lives according to the principle of love have as much right to enter Heaven, and as great a chance of doing so as the rest of us.

Which, of course, means only by the grace and mercy of an all-loving, all-forgiving God.

pinky's not the only Christian to think this way too, actually. If you check the last book in the Chronicles of Narnia, The Last Battle, you'll find a young man who worshipped Tash and hated the name of Aslan, and yet went to heaven because he had through his actions, thoughts, attitudes, deeds, mercies, etc. acted consistently with Aslan's way. Very similar to what pinky's talking about and it comes from a great Christian apologist, CS Lewis. Of course, some Christians will disagree with this point of view, but it's one that's out there in the Christian community to think about and ponder without wholly giving up on Jesus yourself. :)

Good luck to you.

[butterfly]

Thanks Pinky and Merry Sunshine!

Very good point there, I'd forgotten about that bit in The Last Battle too, it's been so long since I last read it. I don't know the Bible as well as I should, but I do know John 3:16;

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

...and that includes the word "believes", so that kind of undermines it. I think there are one or two other verses which point to belief being necessary too.

I still have a problem with the idea of us all deserving to burn in Hell, because who decided that in the first place? It's a bit like if someone grabs hold of you and dangles you over the edge of a cliff, then pulls you to safety and claims to have saved your life.

Did somebody say this was simple?

[DecemberDream]

I felt the same way about it all which is why I'm converting to Judaism :)

[Daisy55]

If we are all God's children he would love us all no matter what... He gave us freewill.

I think some Christians are disturbing, they believe in too much and it harms them. Some don't want to see how other people are feeling and why. Some Christians throw the first stone and point their finger and judge others. that is somewhat disturbing.

I think that some Christians need to go walk in other people shoes and see and feel how they live and breathe... Would they love the person or cast stones at them and point their finger and judge?


It all starts will respecting and loving people for who they are no matter what. Who cares if your different, love and respect them, that is what matters more...

[pinky]

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

That says nothing about those who don't believe in Him, but still live according to His teachings. It only addresses those who believe and accept Jesus.

I love that verse from Scripture. It was the source of a major turning point for me. I remember when I first looked it up (as a Catholic, I regrettably didn't grow up reading the Bible regularly) after seeing the signs at a football game, and thinking, "Okay, so what's so special about that?" Not that it wasn't important to me, but that it was assumed as part of my religious upbringing.....then one day I was doing some everyday chores, and it HIT me!

I would never, I repeat, NEVER give up MY son for the rest of you! I love him way too much to do that!

Suddenly, I realized that my love is a selfish love, while God's love is beyond what I can imagine.

:blueeek:

Reality check!

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by butterfly
Did somebody say this was simple?

I did and it is simple. Humans like to make things more complicated than what they really are. I said that accepting Jesus is simple, leading a Christian life, or any life for that matter, is not simple.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
That's the same problem (among others) I've had with Christianity, and that's the reason I gave up on it years and years ago. Hitler could be in heaven if he repented and accepted Jesus, but Gandhi can't? Yes, not fair at all.

From what I've read, Gandhi was rather impressed with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I would say that for Gandhi to even acknowledge Jesus and take some notes from Him, he must have believed.

[butterfly]

Thanks everyone. I'm with Daisy on this.

I don't really think there's any point talking about it, because if you do have to believe to get in, I'm going to reject Christianity, but if you don't, then it won't matter if I reject Christianity.

I think the problem is that if I accept it, I'm going to end up coming into contact with people who assume I share their views, when I don't. People who it's safer to stay away from because they might not like what I am, or people who bring me down by talking about Hell as if it's real, or trying to dodge the issue by repeating the same thing or nitpicking. Or answering throwaway rhetorical questions in a way that suggests they have no sense of humour.

God has a sense of humour, He made my genitalia.

I know someone who believes in God but doesn't have a religion. She prays, and really believes, but just in a pure one-to-one relationship. I think that's the way I'm going to go.

[tiger_rascal]

Originally posted by butterfly
I know someone who believes in God but doesn't have a religion. She prays, and really believes, but just in a pure one-to-one relationship. I think that's the way I'm going to go.

Thats like me. People can label me as Christian, because thats actually what I am, I believe in Jesus, but its more about the personal relationship and everything else falls into place. Trust in the Lord. I wish you Godspeed.

[butterfly]

I believe in Jesus as a person, but I disagree with the exclusivity thing, in that it doesn't seem fair that you get to go to Heaven and my friend doesn't because she isn't a Christian. That's the only problem I've got with it.

I still think the Bible is confusing and it always comes down to an argument about semantics.

Basically what all this is about is that I recently spent a couple of days staying with a really hardcore Christian friend and she messed with my mind a bit. Maybe she's the problem. She's so much stronger than me and she believes that non-Christians go to Hell. I realised at one point that if she told me that God wanted me to run naked down the street, I'd have believed her. I'd only been a Christian for 4 months, and she'd been one for 15 years. Plus she's over twice my age. She started going on about getting me baptised and stuff, she was so intense. And I think she wanted to get me into bed as well (we did actually share a bed, but nothing dodgy happened).

She was born again when she was 43, and had been an atheist before that. We were talking about this whole business about non-Christians going to Hell. So I said "What if you'd died in an accident when you were 42?" And she looked very solemn and said "Exactly".

[katiekat]

I'm sorry to hear your decision.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
From what I've read, Gandhi was rather impressed with the teachings of Jesus Christ. I would say that for Gandhi to even acknowledge Jesus and take some notes from Him, he must have believed.

Gandhi was impressed with Jesus, yes, but he did not "believe" in Jesus in the sense that Christians do. Here are some quotes from him. According to Christian standards, he would not go to heaven.

I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus. He is as divine as Krishna or Rama or Mohamed or Zoroaster. Similarly, I do not regard every word of the Bible as the inspired word of God, even as I do not regard every word of the Vedas or the Koran as inspired. The sum total of each of these books is certainly inspired, but I miss that inspiration in many of the things taken individually. The Bible is as much a book of religion with me as the Gita and the Koran. (H, 6-3-1937, p25)


What Christ Means to Me
What...does Jesus mean to me? To me, He was one of the greatest teachers humanity has ever had. To His believers, He was God's only begotten Son. Could the fact that I do or do not accept this belief make Jesus have any more or less influence in my life? Is all the grandeur of His teaching and of His doctrine to be forbidden to me? I cannot believe so. (MR, Oct. 1941, pp406-7)

http://www.mkgandhi.org/

[tiger_rascal]

What Christ Means to Me
What...does Jesus mean to me? To me, He was one of the greatest teachers humanity has ever had. To His believers, He was God's only begotten Son. Could the fact that I do or do not accept this belief make Jesus have any more or less influence in my life? Is all the grandeur of His teaching and of His doctrine to be forbidden to me? I cannot believe so. (MR, Oct. 1941, pp406-7)

http://www.mkgandhi.org/

I am impressed with that. I like Gandhi. :)

My point is that Gandhi could be in Heaven, we do not know.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I agree with you Chad, we don't know. But there are Christians would disagree based on the fact the he was not a "true Christian." I like Gandhi too. :)

[CSUchica]

Originally posted by butterfly
Thanks Pinky and Merry Sunshine!

Very good point there, I'd forgotten about that bit in The Last Battle too, it's been so long since I last read it. I don't know the Bible as well as I should, but I do know John 3:16;

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

...and that includes the word "believes", so that kind of undermines it. I think there are one or two other verses which point to belief being necessary too.

I still have a problem with the idea of us all deserving to burn in Hell, because who decided that in the first place? It's a bit like if someone grabs hold of you and dangles you over the edge of a cliff, then pulls you to safety and claims to have saved your life.

Did somebody say this was simple?

I don;t know if this explanation will make any sense but here goes. Hell really wasn't meant for humans, it was meant for the devil and the fallen angels who chose to worship him over God. It was never meant for humans. That's why Jesus came to redeem us and bring us back to the father. This is also why Christians tell everyone about the gospel of Jesus Christ. As human beigns we were given free will so if someone knows about the Lord, and they do not receive Him, the choice is then theirs. Hell was never meant for people though. I hope this makes sense

[honestfan]

i can only go by my own experiences with God. I can only tell you that after I've been filled with the holy ghost, spoken in tongues, and experienced the joy of shouting, i cannot deny Jesus or God. I can't; not when I know he's answered my prayers, when he's spoken to me through his word with things only he would know. I think I have some references that may help you.

http://cbn.com/spirituallife/cbnteachingsheets/
that site has alot of references that helped me when I struggled so hard with my Christian faith.

http://www.explorefaith.org/questions.html#faith

but i think this link is probably easier and better to understand. I pray God will speak to you. Just listen to him.:)

[butterfly]

Thanks everyone, but especially Honestfan for those links. I'm beginning to find some kind of faith again!

I think I was just under the spell of someone who understood the letter of the Bible but not the spirit of it. The more I know of her, the more I'm beginning to feel she's actually quite disturbed. I will pray for her, but for my own protection, I have to avoid her.

I had reached the point where I'd come to the conclusion that even if the Lord Himself came into my living room and performed miracles just for me, I still wouldn't have believed, because I had decided that the reason why people (me included) have had spiritual experiences, is because we're all insane due to our inability to come to terms with our mortality and we have hallucinations. I had become like the dwarves in The Last Battle, when they were in Heaven but still didn't believe it.

I had found a way of discrediting the resurrection, in the form of the phenomenon of posthumous sightings of Elvis.

None of this made me feel good. In fact, I didn't particularly want to live. So I stopped and thought about it, and there was still one thing that I couldn't explain away. The existence of the universe. That one still eluded me.

So I thought some more and realised how irrational I was being. One of my faults is that I tend to give up on things too quickly when they don't work out. I get it from my mother. I'd cast aside my whole belief system because I'd let myself be spiritually seduced by one passionate but misguided person.

I can't get away from the fact that I believe in God. I don't want to get away from that fact. Whenever I haven't believed, it's been both a symptom and a cause of depression, sometimes quite severe. Sometimes as severe as it gets.

Am I going to go back to Christianity? I don't know. I find myself agreeing with Gandhi that I would be a Christian but for some of the Christians I've met. Maybe I shouldn't label myself as a Christian, maybe none of us should. Maybe it's for someone else to decide whether each of us is really a Christian or not.

God bless us all.

[dramaqueen]

Originally posted by butterfly
Am I going to go back to Christianity? I don't know. I find myself agreeing with Gandhi that I would be a Christian but for some of the Christians I've met. Maybe I shouldn't label myself as a Christian, maybe none of us should. Maybe it's for someone else to decide whether each of us is really a Christian or not.
God bless us all.
Here is the thing, I have read this whole thread and the thing that sticks out in my mind is this:
There is truth in all religions that truly seek God and truth.
Did I always belive that? Nope! I had not had any parental encouragement for going to church as a kid. I had to ask to go with my friends. I never really had a "religion" to call my own, I just knew I believed in God and Jesus and I liked how I felt when I tried to do what the Bible said.
When I became an adult I "found religion" in that I was "saved" or "born again" according to the church I was going to. I saw all these people who seemed to "get something I didn't" and I was confused about being "saved" at a particular moment in time, since I always felt like I had God in my heart and was guided internally.
As I got deeper in (because I wanted to "do it right" and get closer to God) I became more judgemental and smug due to the things that people were teaching me about the exclusivity of Christianity. In the back of my mind I had nagging doubts that this was right. I am not saying all Born Again Christians are like this, I am only saying what I noticed in my case and in my life. I also met many who truly lived as an example for God.
The answer for me came when I stumbled onto a book about the Catholic Church. My best friend had been Catholic for as long as I had known her and I used to remind her about how "wrong" she was (according to the teaching I was getting) I never actually ASKED her what she belived-what a novel concept, eh?
I read and found out that deep inside me, this is what I had always believed. And the one thing that gets me is the teaching they have about being an example rather than trying to "convince" or "convert" It taught me how to deepen my personal relationship with Jesus by focusing on others; not to "win" them but to love them.
Now-I am not saying this is what everyone should believe, I am beginning to wonder if people aren't all called to believe differently to utilize their talents. All I know is that I have found a home and it wasn't where I thought it would be. I had persecuted Catholicism (in my own subtle way) and since converting I have basically become the only one in my family and as far as my mom is concerned "am going to hell" I can live with that becasue I feel comfortable with my decision and where it came from. People will judge, but I know what I belive.
That is the bottom line for you and for anyone I think. Rather than abandon God all together seek your place and don't be afraid to move on if your heart is telling you that what you are hearing/being taught doesn't sit well in your heart.
The problem with religion, and Christians in particular is that we are all too human to be very good at it. Just like you shouldn't judge others on one's actions; don't judge Christ because some of His followers let their own agenda get in the way. Your heart knows the real answers.:D

[butterfly]

Thanks dramaqueen.

I know that I believe in God, but I still don't think I "get" Christianity. The only thing I "get" about it is the love and forgiveness bit. I find that the less attention I pay to the Bible and all its contradictions, the more positive and loving I feel.

[Stuff_Like_That]

I definitely understand the postition you're in. I used to be christian...well even more, I used to be catholic. (The Microsoft of christianity :p). I've deinitely drifted away from it, and mostly for the reason you stated in your first post. There's lots of other reasons too.

As far as hell and stuff, I just look at it as something made up by christians to scare people into their belifes. And to me, no one should believe in something out of fear. Or believe in something "just in case" there's a hell. Which was how I used to be, and it was no way to live at all.

I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. Wanting to believe in a higher power, but not really sure where to take that belife and christinaity just doesn't feel right anymore.

Hope you can find something out there that's right for you. Just keep an open mind and go out there and explore and research. Eventually you'll probably find something that feels comfortable with you. But like I said, just keep your mind and your heart open right now ;)

[oldernow]

As far as hell and stuff, I just look at it as something made up by christians to scare people into their belifes.

Have you read the Bible? If you have surely you have read all about it. You really shouldn't accuse Christians of making things up unless you can back it up. :wink:

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by oldernow
Have you read the Bible? If you have surely you have read all about it. You really shouldn't accuse Christians of making things up unless you can back it up. :wink:
I was forced to read it during suday school, and I'm learning about some of it again in my mythology class at school

back it up with what? This is just my interpertation and what I believe. The bible is mythology to me. Just some nice stories people made up to answer their questions about the universe. I believe hell was a good story to use to convert people. Obviously it's worked cuz there's many people who will say they're christian "just in case" there is a hell.

if you want to accept what the bible says is the truth. That's fine. I won't judge you for it. But for me personally, they're just stories.

[honestfan]

Originally posted by butterfly
Thanks dramaqueen.

I know that I believe in God, but I still don't think I "get" Christianity. The only thing I "get" about it is the love and forgiveness bit. I find that the less attention I pay to the Bible and all its contradictions, the more positive and loving I feel.
i don't know what else to say hon. glad the links were of service, hope you continue with your search with GOd. just try not to listen to what so many people say, go by what God says- listen to your heart and talk to God. he'll guide you. ask him for a revelation, ask him to reveal himself to you. he'll do it. i can testify to that myself. I struggled with my faith also, we all have one point in time, but the thing is, I asked and like his word says- I received. I was hungry for Jesus, i was hungry to feel his love and he really does work in mysterious ways. All i can say is taste and see that the lord is good. TASTE AND SEE!:)

[tiger_rascal]

Stuff_Like_That, for being made up stories those people back in the day sure were good at guessing scientific matters, some of which were just proven in the last century! :biggrin:

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Examples please, Chad?

[tiger_rascal]

There are so many! Most of which will be refuted, but thats ok.

Here is one of my favorites. :)

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This scripture has two meanings to me, first and foremost we have faith and do not need proof, but also, this tells me that if we believe in something we can not see, surely there are more examples around us... atoms.

[oldernow]

I was forced to read it during suday school, and I'm learning about some of it again in my mythology class at school

back it up with what? This is just my interpertation and what I believe. The bible is mythology to me. Just some nice stories people made up to answer their questions about the universe. I believe hell was a good story to use to convert people. Obviously it's worked cuz there's many people who will say they're christian "just in case" there is a hell.
The Bible, unlike other ancient books, continues to pass with high marks when it's historical accuracy is tested. The Bible has been cross examined and found reliable.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
There are so many! Most of which will be refuted, but thats ok.

Here is one of my favorites. :)

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

This scripture has two meanings to me, first and foremost we have faith and do not need proof, but also, this tells me that if we believe in something we can not see, surely there are more examples around us... atoms.

I'm not following you. You said that scientific matters have been proven by the Bible. What scientific matters? That scripture does not prove the existance of atoms. In fact, it is so vaguely worded, that I could take it to mean... lol Well, honestly, it sounds like a bunch of doublespeak and I can't find any meaning in it whatsoever.

The Bible is realiable? In what way? I'd be interested in seeing your sources to back up the statement, "The Bible, unlike other ancient books, continues to pass with high marks when it's historical accuracy is tested. The Bible has been cross examined and found reliable."

[tiger_rascal]

Thats just it DoubleEdgeSword, the Bible has scientific matters in it which were later proven accurate by modern scientific methods.

The scripture I posted says that the world is made of things that we can not see, God created it that way. You can interpret it any other way you want.

...things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
Thats just it DoubleEdgeSword, the Bible has scientific matters in it which were later proven accurate by modern scientific methods.

[/B]

Give me an example. Give me your sources. Show me that what you say is true.

[tiger_rascal]

Do you know what atoms are?

I do not have the time or means to give you a lesson on science and history. You could do the research yourself.

[tiger_rascal]

Im simply fascinated that when there are mentions of science in the Bible that it is consistent with modern day science.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Okay, I think we have a problem of communication again, Chad. In a debate, when one party makes a statement, it is up to that party to provide the proof, not the other way around.

Since you are unwilling or unable to do so, I can only conclude that your statements regarding science and the bible are groundless.

[tiger_rascal]

Communication is often a problem in online message boards. I never knew we were debating. I was simply stating my belief, if someone wants more information, they can do as I did and look into it further, because no matter what kind of information I provide, it will still be refuted and an interpretation argument will be posed, as you already hinted at.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

So, it is just your opinion that the Bible is scientifically accurate?

[tiger_rascal]

Of course, although I do not think Im the only one, I would say there a quite a few people who would agree with me. When something is on paper its hard to deny it, the Bibles scriptures for example. We know what the Bible is and what it says and we know what modern day science has to say about science. Read the scriptures concerning science and see if they match up with what modern day science has to say. Its rather easy really, unless one chooses not to look further into matters or simply does not care.

[MerrySunshine]

Chad, isn't there a verse about the world being round in the OT?

Accuracy of the Bible: The Bible does reflect many factual matters that have been shown to be so -- descriptions of cities and towns, their locations, buildings within them and their locations, tunnels have all proved to be accurate through archaeology. Many were at one time or another thought to be fictions before the archaeology discoveries. For instance, for quite some time, even Pontius Pilate was considered to be by some a fictitious dude . . . until they discovered, through archaeology, that there really was a Pontius Pilate, governor of Palestine, during the first century.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Merry, I am aware of some historical accuracy in the bible. I don't think there's much dispute that certain people and places actually existed. I've read some in National Geographic (I think) about the different digs.

Chad, you are more of an authority on the bible than I am. I don't believe I have read anything credible that has said the bible is scientifically accurate. But, you made the statement, and that's why I asked you to back it up. But if you don't want to, I'll accept that. But, I don't accept the statements you've made without proof.

[tiger_rascal]

Double, you do not have to accept the statements I've made, whether I have proof or not. I may bring this up again in the future in a new thread, Im still learning myself, I just figured you may want to check it out for yourself, that is all.

Merry, the scripture you are speaking of actually says circle, many people refute that scripture as not actually meaning round, which in my opinion is just nit-picking. There are other scriptures concerning astronomy and geology. Im amazed that these things were mentioned in such an old book, but its understandable to me, since I believe it was all divine.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by tiger_rascal
Double, you do not have to accept the statements I've made, whether I have proof or not. I may bring this up again in the future in a new thread, Im still learning myself, I just figured you may want to check it out for yourself, that is all.




Ah, but you see? If you show me why, if you show me where, and if you explain yourself, then maybe I will accept what you say. That's the point of debate, to learn.

I'm not trying to be purposely mean. I'm a critical thinker. I use reason and logic. If someone tells me the sky is blue, I'm going to say prove it. I've already learned quite a lot since joining this forum. I think I've stated that I've read more of the bible in the past few months than in the past 20 years.

You brought this up, so I assumed you knew examples.

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by oldernow
The Bible, unlike other ancient books, continues to pass with high marks when it's historical accuracy is tested. The Bible has been cross examined and found reliable.
yes, some things in the bible are historically acurate. Refering to places, wars, and people who ruled during the time. But still, there's lots of it I just see as mythology. Such as the world being created in 7 days, Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, etc. I put heaven and hell in that category as well. Some of them are fun stories, but I don't accept them as the truth. That's fine if you choose to. I won't judge you if you don't judge me ;)

As for scientific evidence, I don't remember any. Like DES, I'm interested to see these examples you have.

[tiger_rascal]

Keep reading the Bible... and read some more. ;)

Some are obvious while others are hard to see at first. I've read over some of the Bible many times and that book amazes me, something different pops up in front of you and slaps you on the face after reading it a few more times and praying about it. I honestly believe that praying to God to open your heart and mind will also open your eyes to something you may have been blind to.

But of course, not everyone will feel that way and thus will not fully understand.

Its there, you have to find it.

I do know examples, but where would the fun be in that?! ;)

[tiger_rascal]

I almost forgot a very important point! I would rather tell you all more about Jesus and salvation, rather than dwell on the scientific matters in the Bible! I also believe that with Jesus, everything just falls into place.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I think you know me well enough from my posts, Chad, to understand that I have fundamental problems with some Christian tenets. I don't see that changing. You're not going to get a conversion. lol

I am however interested in the bible as literature and history. I don't believe it is sacred, or written by God. If someone makes a statement that doesn't seem logical, I question it, but honestly I'm not interested enough to go searching through the bible to prove your point for you. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

[tiger_rascal]

I thought you would be wanting to prove it for yourself.

Fair enough.

I just wanted to make sure people knew my priorities. I did not expect any conversions. :biggrin: I know where you stand.

I hope you understand what Im trying to say. :)

[DoubleEdgeSword]

No.. you see it's up to me to prove my own statements, not other people's. When someone makes a declarative statement, the onus is on them to back it up.

I don't believe there is anything scientifically accurate in the Bible, so why would I spend time trying to prove myself wrong? Make sense?

By the way, I found a really good site on logical fallacies. I thought you might be interested. http://www.str.com.br/English/Scientia/fallacies2.htm

[tiger_rascal]

Oh, ok, I was under the impression that you had never fully read the Bible and found the scriptures concerning scientific matters. So you have then, you just refute them? Why didnt you say so, rather than having me prove you right, again? If that makes any sense. :biggrin: So basically, we have a difference in interpretation? I would be interested in comparing scriptures with you.

Thanks for the website, but it contains much of what I already know.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

No, you misunderstood me, Chad. lol.. seems to be a problem with us.

I have not read the bible from cover to cover in many years, so I would have no idea to know where there are any scriptures such as you've stated. I don't remember in particular any such scriptures that seemed scientifically accurate. But, it's not up to me to find those.

What I've said is this: You made the statements, not I. It is up to you to provide the back up evidence if you wish to pursuade me to your point of view. If you don't want to do that, that's okay, but then your statement is pretty much meaningless as you've shown no logical basis for it.

[tiger_rascal]

Thats just it, I do not wish to pursuade you, I never did. You were the one to ask, that is why I thought maybe you were interested, but it sounds as though you have your mind made up already. I simply find it pointless. That and I do not have the time to do the research for you. I thought that if you wanted to learn about something new, you would do it yourself, since you are not interested in doing so, I am not interested in wasting my time at the moment.

Perhaps in the future I will post some scriptures that hint at science and my thoughts. Then others can jump in if they like, then maybe we can have a proper debate on the issue. I do not think this is the proper thread for it.

[oldernow]

We have discussed science in the Bible in the past, if you want you can do a search.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Chad, you just don't get. You can't make a statement and not expect a challenge.

I believe you did make that statement to persuade. You made it in direct response to a counter opinion by stuff like that.

OKay, I'm going to drop it for now. But, be warned, I will challenge you again.

[Stuff_Like_That]

Naw, I'd rather not read the bible. I find greek, eygyptian, and voodoo mythology far more facinating than christian mythology.

and I think you're really confused at what DES is trying to point out. You stated a fact, but now you need to back it up. That's how debate works.

[tiger_rascal]

I can make a statement and not accept a challenge. Sometimes I like to speak my opinion about my faith and perhaps even discuss it, but I should not have to defend it every time I post something.

Be warned, I may not accept any of your challenges. ;)

[DoubleEdgeSword]

You don't have to, no.

Okay, let's see....

The bible wasn't written thousands of years ago by god, or any divine entity. In fact, there really were no disciples, and jesus was just a man. The right-wing conservatives wrote it just to bamboozle the masses and get their mind off how much worse off they are than all the fat cats who run the world. It's all about money and power. In fact, it's been proven.


heh heh :D

[Keronothnetophobia]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
The bible wasn't written thousands of years ago by god, or any divine entity.
WOW...umm...I'm almost speechless. Okay....Hun...No one ever said the Bible was written by God or a divine entity. lol. The fact that you said that show's that you know little on the subject. If you know little on the subject...study it..research it..THEN come to a conclusion to base your opinion on.

The Bible was divinely inspired....it was written by mere men. They were INSPIRED by God....!

But please..if you want to "debate" then by all means...back up your evidence....you said that's what you do in a debate. Show me your sources!;)!

[oldernow]

and I think you're really confused at what DES is trying to point out. You stated a fact, but now you need to back it up. That's how debate works.
Your new here so let me explain this forum somewhat. We have gone over the same questions and same subjects numerous times. We always have done our best to answer whatever comes this way. We have backed up what we say, yet it is never good enough for those who are not willing to examine the evidence. There are very few people who come here wanting to understand. With that in mind we have had some serious debates and when evidence is provided it is usually ignored and so we start the cycle of the same questions that have already been answered.
Also, I asked you to back up that Christianity being nothing more than mythology, what did you offer in response? So your comment seems a bit hypocritical.

[Keronothnetophobia]

Originally posted by oldernow
Your new here so let me explain this forum somewhat. We have gone over the same questions and same subjects numerous times. We always have done our best to answer whatever comes this way. We have backed up what we say, yet it is never good enough for those who are not willing to examine the evidence. There are very few people who come here wanting to understand. With that in mind we have had some serious debates and when evidence is provided it is usually ignored and so we start the cycle of the same questions that have already been answered.
Also, I asked you to back up that Christianity being nothing more than mythology, what did you offer in response? So your comment seems a bit hypocritical.
Also..I doubt the people who say these things have actually sat down and read the entire Bible. You shouldn't be allowed to make a decision until you know all of the facts. Well you can...but it's not an educated decision.

[katiekat]

If you want to know about the Bible's scientific accuracy, you should read 'The Signature of God' by Grant Jeffrey. It's really interesting and just further proves the Bible's validity.

Key Topics Include:

*New Bible Codes reveal details of the September 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon
*Historical documents confirm the supernatural darkness when Jesus was crucified
*Advanced scientific statements provide compelling evidence the Bible was inspired
*Incredibly modern medical statements prove that God inspired the Scriptures
*Hundreds of accurate prophecies demonstrate the Bible is supernatural

Here's a link to his products which are all great stuff:
https://ww2.micahtek.com/nexolive/nShop_DETAIL.cfm?CFID=5172807&CFTOKEN=24549645&MKID=10491612-6C31-11D8-A3EE00B0D022E580

If you want a scientific debate about Creation, go to http://www.drdino.com/

This guy has yet to loose a debate about it. I've seen him speak before and he knows what he's talking about. It's interesting so check it out...

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by Keronothnetophobia
WOW...umm...I'm almost speechless. Okay....Hun...No one ever said the Bible was written by God or a divine entity. lol. The fact that you said that show's that you know little on the subject. If you know little on the subject...study it..research it..THEN come to a conclusion to base your opinion on.

The Bible was divinely inspired....it was written by mere men. They were INSPIRED by God....!

But please..if you want to "debate" then by all means...back up your evidence....you said that's what you do in a debate. Show me your sources!;)!

I was joking.. lol Just having a little fun with Chad.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by oldernow
We have backed up what we say, yet it is never good enough for those who are not willing to examine the evidence.

Speaking for myself, that is just not true. Anytime someone has offered a scripture or some other source, I've read it, thought about it. Perhaps I may come to a different conclusion. Perhaps I may not agree the evidence is strong enough. But to make an accusation that I don't examine the evidence is just plain wrong.

[Keronothnetophobia]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
I was joking.. lol Just having a little fun with Chad.
I know you were just joking but it would have been a better joke to say "The bible wasn't written thousands of years ago by the desciples." THAT would be a joke...but you got your "joke" messed up there hun...!

And if you wanna know about the accuracy of the Bible scientific wise.....just read it. Do your homework y'all.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by katiekat
If you want to know about the Bible's scientific accuracy, you should read 'The Signature of God' by Grant Jeffrey. It's really interesting and just further proves the Bible's validity.

Key Topics Include:

*New Bible Codes reveal details of the September 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon
*Historical documents confirm the supernatural darkness when Jesus was crucified
*Advanced scientific statements provide compelling evidence the Bible was inspired
*Incredibly modern medical statements prove that God inspired the Scriptures
*Hundreds of accurate prophecies demonstrate the Bible is supernatural

Here's a link to his products which are all great stuff:
https://ww2.micahtek.com/nexolive/nShop_DETAIL.cfm?CFID=5172807&CFTOKEN=24549645&MKID=10491612-6C31-11D8-A3EE00B0D022E580

If you want a scientific debate about Creation, go to http://www.drdino.com/

This guy has yet to loose a debate about it. I've seen him speak before and he knows what he's talking about. It's interesting so check it out...

Thanks! I'll check it out. :)

[oldernow]

Double, my post was not directed towards you.:)

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Okay.. wasn't sure. I do actually read what people post. And I go beyond and even find sources of my own. I'm interested in learning. :)

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by oldernow
Your new here so let me explain this forum somewhat. We have gone over the same questions and same subjects numerous times. We always have done our best to answer whatever comes this way. We have backed up what we say, yet it is never good enough for those who are not willing to examine the evidence. There are very few people who come here wanting to understand. With that in mind we have had some serious debates and when evidence is provided it is usually ignored and so we start the cycle of the same questions that have already been answered.
Also, I asked you to back up that Christianity being nothing more than mythology, what did you offer in response? So your comment seems a bit hypocritical.
alright I understand I'm just beating a dead horse here. So if you don't want to back up your statements, then fine. This is just the first time I've heard someone say there's scientific references in the bible, and I wondered where that was coming from. I know the bible has lots of historical significance, but not scientific. Just wondered where that conclution came from. But like I said, if it's just beating a dead horse, then I'll drop the debate.

Is it hypocritical? My opinion that the bible is mythology is just that: my opinion. Some people accept it as the truth, but I see it as just another myth created by men. I don't believe men were inspired by any sort of "god" to write the bible. People back then just came up with theories of how the universe was created. I also believe that christianity borrowed a lot of traditions and belifes from other religions. Peganism for example. "The horned one," one of the gods in peganism, christianity borrowed to use as "satan". That's why pegans often get labled as "devil worshipers," when that's not the case at all. I found this while reading a book about Wicca and also on some pegan websites.

anyway, i see you guys are tired of this debate, so I'll just let it go

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by katiekat

If you want a scientific debate about Creation, go to http://www.drdino.com/

This guy has yet to loose a debate about it. I've seen him speak before and he knows what he's talking about. It's interesting so check it out...
hmm...I just took a look at this. It's interesting, but what I take from it is that, no one can really prove anything about the creation of the universe. Which I agree, you really can't state anything as fact. They're all just theories

[bekahbeans]

Actually,there's a book called the Science of God. My mom read it and she said it's really good. Dunno if anyone would want to check it out, but it seems pretty cool.

As far as the Bible being mythology, the biggest problem I have with that is that it isn't written like most mythology. It's not written like a story or a fairy tale or a myth. The way it's written is more like it's an actual account of things that happened. Of course at this point, no one can prove everything in it, but a good amount of the really important events and places and people have been proven archeaologically to be true.

I think the whole borrowing thing is interesting too. I don't know if religons and cultures really borrowed from each other as much as maybe they were all onto spiritual truths and because of their different cultures and societies, simply expressed the same thing in different but similar ways. I have no idea if that's a historically sound idea, but it kinda makes sense in my mind, and I thought it made me sound smart. :p

[oldernow]

I know the bible has lots of historical significance, but not scientific. Just wondered where that conclution came from. But like I said, if it's just beating a dead horse, then I'll drop the debate.
if you believe that the Bible has historical merit than why do you say that Christianity is myth?

[Keronothnetophobia]

Originally posted by oldernow
if you believe that the Bible has historical merit than why do you say that Christianity is myth?
Christianity is myth?

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Nearly every culture and religion has a creation myth. Christianity is no different. Creation myths generally follow the same pattern.

1. Explanation of how the world came into being.
2. Creation of humans.
3. Identification with place.
4. A state of perfection or innocence.
5. Temptation and a fall
6. An explanation of good and evil.


Some of them are really nice stories, but true? That's where faith comes in. But faith is not truth.

[Keronothnetophobia]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Nearly every culture and religion has a creation myth. Christianity is no different. Creation myths generally follow the same pattern.

1. Explanation of how the world came into being.
2. Creation of humans.
3. Identification with place.
4. A state of perfection or innocence.
5. Temptation and a fall
6. An explanation of good and evil.


Some of them are really nice stories, but true? That's where faith comes in. But faith is not truth.
So are you saying that EVERY religion is myth or just Christianity?

[bekahbeans]

I don't think she's saying religions are myth, just some of their stories.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

I didn't say religion is myth, I said that creation myths are found in most every religion and culture, and yes that is true for Christianity.

[Keronothnetophobia]

Well some of the Bible may have been exaggerated...which is my belief.....But there are actual proven facts in the Bible unlike in mythology. All of the mythological stories are just that...stories...! At least some of the Bible has been proved to be accurate...which makes you wonder. It's more than coincidence....I believe there is a higher being...a divine entity. But I believe that the Bible was written by man...and men have flaws and therefore so does the Bible. But I do believe there are factual events in the Bible. Clearly there is..there's proof of it!

Don't believe me? Go get a Bible....

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Here's a link to his products which are all great stuff:
https://ww2.micahtek.com/nexolive/n...3EE00B0D022E580

If you want a scientific debate about Creation, go to http://www.drdino.com/


I couldn't get to the first site, it looks like a member site.

The second site is interesting, but in the majority of his short essays, he makes assertions but doesn't always back them up with sources. I really found nothing to make me change my mind. And some of what he says isn't proof at all. In one essay he says that because there are doubts about the veracity of point A , then his assertion must be true. It is the same as saying that if nobody can prove absolutely why the dinorsours disappeared, then that proves that aliens came and abducted them. It is a classic fallacy of logic.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Originally posted by Keronothnetophobia
Well some of the Bible may have been exaggerated...which is my belief.....But there are actual proven facts in the Bible unlike in mythology. All of the mythological stories are just that...stories...! At least some of the Bible has been proved to be accurate...which makes you wonder. It's more than coincidence....I believe there is a higher being...a divine entity. But I believe that the Bible was written by man...and men have flaws and therefore so does the Bible. But I do believe there are factual events in the Bible. Clearly there is..there's proof of it!

Don't believe me? Go get a Bible....

Kero, I have a Bible, and I have read it. I'm not arguing with you. There are people and events in the Bible that have been proven to have existed. But this alone does not make the bible true in all regards. Many religious texts mix history and myth.

[Stuff_Like_That]

Alright all you bible thumpers. Seeing as I’m the only one who actually understands that in intellectual debates, people need proof to back up their statements...unfortunately, this proof was never provided. I simply asked for some examples on the scientific relevance of the bible, but did anyone who argued this case back it up...no. So i did my own research i hit the information superhighway, stopped at a couple of well known search engines such as dog pile and everyone’s favorite butler Jeeves, and I found some rather interesting explanations of the seven miracles of Christ...yes only seven.

Miracle-o uno, changing water to wine...come one people, have you honestly never heard of food coloring? don't tell me it did not exist back in "Christ is cool" times, (whoa, deja vu seeing as Christ has risen yet again to the king of mainstream ie movies, cult albums, I mean songs of worship CDs)
how else would you explain how clothes were different colors? and don't give me that whole "he was carpenters son, wasn’t a quote fashion designer unquote, he was frickin Jesus Christ, like the Johnny Depp of his time any one would've hooked him up with anything. but I’m getting off topic, on to the next praised event.

miracle number 2 , well this sounds like the case of a the Miss Cleo’s to me more than an actually healing of a sick boy. Jesus didn’t really do anything, he merely made a prediction. And let’s face facts people, the boy had a fever, you know those things were you head gets really warm and you get to stay home all day playing video games, or reading the bible in some cases here, because your fever broke after a good rest in bed. Now, yeah there is the whole he said the boy was better at the same time the boy got better…so he’s got some psychic in him, big friggin deal. As far as I have been notified, all that means is Jesus obviously was feeling slightly unloved and unimportant so he pretended he was from Jamaica bought himself a toll free pigeon service based in New Jersey and had people send their pigeons at the cost of their promise of eternal worship of his name, no that doesn’t sound cocky or cult like at ALL I swear.

Now on to the healing of the man at the Pool of Bethesda , ha bet you can’t even pronounce that. Well this case can be explained by a well spread American disease of “couch potatoism“. The only real reason the dude was still “sick” in the first place was the fact that he couldn’t get off his lazy butt and walk himself down to the pool, all those long 38 years, he was waiting for some one else to do it. But hey props to Jesus for tell the old fogy off.

Oh yes kids, the fun has only just begun…

Miracle 4. The bread and fish….okay right off the bat, this story explain that Jesus headed over to the SEA of Galilee, now lets look up the word sea shall we? Hmm a large body of salt water, usually surrounded by land…hmmm water…fish…fish….water….fishermen…water…fish….I think you see where I am going with this…. Now let me explain for you slow folk how exactly jesus got away with this one…. “then Jesus lifted up His eyes and seeing the great multitude coming toward Him, he said to Philip, “ Where shall we buy bread that these may eat?” But this he said to test him, for He Himself knew what he would do.” here ya go, those last seven words flat out tell you the whole thing was staged, jesus knew there would be a lot of people, and with a lot of people a few traveling up and down a hill with a buttload of fish and bread is not easily noticed. But then again….if you think about it….what were serving sizes like back then…he probably didn’t even need to higher the fish/bread roadies at all.

Number 5 Can we say SANDBAR people? I mean come on! It was dark, and the boat was only 3 or 4 miles off shore…perfect location for afore mentioned sandbar. If you could consider any miracle from this story why was it not the AOL top speed performance the boat made once Jesus got on…. “And immediately the boat was at the land were they were going.”

Ok this is getting ridiculous

6 Now has anyone seen the episode of The Simpson’s (yes its capitalized) where Bart cures Milhouse of his blindness, and then Milhouse got hit by a truck? Yeah real good doer there folks. And did you not notice how he told the man to wash his eyes in the pool… obviously this guy had a bad case of eye crust and with closed eyes couldn’t see the way to the water to clean his eyes. Simple enough

Alright now last one. Raising the dead… way to go Jesus, I had no idea you practiced voo doo but seriously folks. Was there any real proof this Lazarus guy was really dead? I mean these are the days when the Chinese thought mercury gave u eternal life…yeah smart doctors, I so trust their diagnosis of a dead person, what did like God just speak to them and say “He is dead!” didn’t think so. Not to mention Jesus and this guy were old buddies, which probably might be an argument for BLACKMAIL Jesus had against Lazarus, so Lazarus had to be his little bitch and pull Jesus’s little stunts for him, sorta like Jesus Junkie era Punk’d (good show, hot host, sure he’s not the son of god, cause well he is a god)

There you have it folks, the scientific explanations of the miracles of Christ, miraculous huh?
Special thanks to Dr. Miller P.H.D.

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
Kero, I have a Bible, and I have read it. I'm not arguing with you. There are people and events in the Bible that have been proven to have existed. But this alone does not make the bible true in all regards. Many religious texts mix history and myth.
exactly!

[bekahbeans]

Originally posted by Stuff_Like_That
Alright all you bible thumpers. Seeing as I’m the only one who actually understands that in intellectual debates, people need proof to back up their statements...unfortunately, this proof was never provided. I simply asked for some examples on the scientific relevance of the bible, but did anyone who argued this case back it up...no. So i did my own research i hit the information superhighway, stopped at a couple of well known search engines such as dog pile and everyone’s favorite butler Jeeves, and I found some rather interesting explanations of the seven miracles of Christ...yes only seven.

Miracle-o uno, changing water to wine...come one people, have you honestly never heard of food coloring? don't tell me it did not exist back in "Christ is cool" times, (whoa, deja vu seeing as Christ has risen yet again to the king of mainstream ie movies, cult albums, I mean songs of worship CDs)
how else would you explain how clothes were different colors? and don't give me that whole "he was carpenters son, wasn’t a quote fashion designer unquote, he was frickin Jesus Christ, like the Johnny Depp of his time any one would've hooked him up with anything. but I’m getting off topic, on to the next praised event.

miracle number 2 , well this sounds like the case of a the Miss Cleo’s to me more than an actually healing of a sick boy. Jesus didn’t really do anything, he merely made a prediction. And let’s face facts people, the boy had a fever, you know those things were you head gets really warm and you get to stay home all day playing video games, or reading the bible in some cases here, because your fever broke after a good rest in bed. Now, yeah there is the whole he said the boy was better at the same time the boy got better…so he’s got some psychic in him, big friggin deal. As far as I have been notified, all that means is Jesus obviously was feeling slightly unloved and unimportant so he pretended he was from Jamaica bought himself a toll free pigeon service based in New Jersey and had people send their pigeons at the cost of their promise of eternal worship of his name, no that doesn’t sound cocky or cult like at ALL I swear.

Now on to the healing of the man at the Pool of Bethesda , ha bet you can’t even pronounce that. Well this case can be explained by a well spread American disease of “couch potatoism“. The only real reason the dude was still “sick” in the first place was the fact that he couldn’t get off his lazy butt and walk himself down to the pool, all those long 38 years, he was waiting for some one else to do it. But hey props to Jesus for tell the old fogy off.

Oh yes kids, the fun has only just begun…

Miracle 4. The bread and fish….okay right off the bat, this story explain that Jesus headed over to the SEA of Galilee, now lets look up the word sea shall we? Hmm a large body of salt water, usually surrounded by land…hmmm water…fish…fish….water….fishermen…water…fish….I think you see where I am going with this…. Now let me explain for you slow folk how exactly jesus got away with this one…. “then Jesus lifted up His eyes and seeing the great multitude coming toward Him, he said to Philip, “ Where shall we buy bread that these may eat?” But this he said to test him, for He Himself knew what he would do.” here ya go, those last seven words flat out tell you the whole thing was staged, jesus knew there would be a lot of people, and with a lot of people a few traveling up and down a hill with a buttload of fish and bread is not easily noticed. But then again….if you think about it….what were serving sizes like back then…he probably didn’t even need to higher the fish/bread roadies at all.

Number 5 Can we say SANDBAR people? I mean come on! It was dark, and the boat was only 3 or 4 miles off shore…perfect location for afore mentioned sandbar. If you could consider any miracle from this story why was it not the AOL top speed performance the boat made once Jesus got on…. “And immediately the boat was at the land were they were going.”

Ok this is getting ridiculous

6 Now has anyone seen the episode of The Simpson’s (yes its capitalized) where Bart cures Milhouse of his blindness, and then Milhouse got hit by a truck? Yeah real good doer there folks. And did you not notice how he told the man to wash his eyes in the pool… obviously this guy had a bad case of eye crust and with closed eyes couldn’t see the way to the water to clean his eyes. Simple enough

Alright now last one. Raising the dead… way to go Jesus, I had no idea you practiced voo doo but seriously folks. Was there any real proof this Lazarus guy was really dead? I mean these are the days when the Chinese thought mercury gave u eternal life…yeah smart doctors, I so trust their diagnosis of a dead person, what did like God just speak to them and say “He is dead!” didn’t think so. Not to mention Jesus and this guy were old buddies, which probably might be an argument for BLACKMAIL Jesus had against Lazarus, so Lazarus had to be his little bitch and pull Jesus’s little stunts for him, sorta like Jesus Junkie era Punk’d (good show, hot host, sure he’s not the son of god, cause well he is a god)

There you have it folks, the scientific explanations of the miracles of Christ, miraculous huh?
Special thanks to Dr. Miller P.H.D.

Actually since there was really only person saying that there was scientific relevence in the Bible there's no need to get snotty with everyone else. Not only that, but more than one person provided names of books and websites that we found interesting on the topic. And what do Christ's miracles have to do with anything? Nothing.

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by bekahbeans
And what do Christ's miracles have to do with anything? Nothing.
just the "scientific relevance" of the bible.

oh you thought my reply was snotty, eh? i thought it was funny. Meh, guess not everyone shares my sense of humor

[bekahbeans]

Ah well, not knowing you, I missed the humor I suppose.

The whole point of miracles is that they are extraordinary. They woudn't necessarily have any scientific backing. I don't think that's what Chad was referring to at all.

And most of those "explanations" were pretty half assed, but somewhat humerous.

[oldernow]

Seeing as I’m the only one who actually understands that in intellectual debates, people need proof to back up their statements...unfortunately, this proof was never provided.
So now your more of an intellectual than us Bible thumpers?
Can you prove to us that The Bible is Mythology? Can you back up what you say?

You can do a search in this forum, on pass discussions about this subject. I would do it for you but since you believe that you are more of an intellectual than I, you can do it yourself.

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by oldernow
So now your more of an intellectual than us Bible thumpers?
Can you prove to us that The Bible is Mythology? Can you back up what you say?

You can do a search in this forum, on pass discussions about this subject. I would do it for you but since you believe that you are more of an intellectual than I, you can do it yourself.
No, my post said the debate was intellectual. Not I nor you. (ouch my grammar just got crappy)

and you can prove that myths such as Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark were true?

The post I did that you're refering to was merely for amusement. But I am stating a simple point: in christianity, you see miracles, I see myth.

It's just like, can you prove greek mythology isn't true? How about Nordic mythology? Can you prove voodoun gods are just myth? People who practice voodoo can become possessed by their gods. For example, a normal guy can become possessed by the Voodoun god of fire. Next thing ya know, he's able to touch fire and eat it feeling no burns or pain whatsoever. You can say "hmm...those people are on some good drugs." or "wow, maybe their gods are more than mere myths and really can possess human beings." It's all a matter of whether you choose to see miracles (these people really are possessed) or just see it as myths (these people are smoking something good and need to share!)

the bible may refer to people and places that did exist, but that doesn't mean everything writen about those people/places is 100% true. Doesn't mean they're myth either, but that's how I choose to see it. Maybe from your standpoint they are truth, but not to me. We can't prove eachother either way.

[bluehorizonx10]

I debated whether to post to this, and I guess it got the best of me........or maybe the will of God took over. God is perfect, always was, always will be. Anything He puts His name to is also perfect and in His will.

Stuff, I only feel sad for you. :bluesad:

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by bekahbeans
Ah well, not knowing you, I missed the humor I suppose.

The whole point of miracles is that they are extraordinary. They woudn't necessarily have any scientific backing. I don't think that's what Chad was referring to at all.

And most of those "explanations" were pretty half assed, but somewhat humerous.
guess you're probably right. Didn't have a whole lot to do with this thread. I thought it did, and I thought the person who wrote it did a great job, so I posted it. Ahh well, guess it went off topic too much

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10

Stuff, I only feel sad for you. :bluesad:
oh but why? Life is good to me. There's much bigger issues and people far more worthy of your sympahty. How about the people in Haiti? Now there's some people that could use your love

[bekahbeans]

Originally posted by Stuff_Like_That
guess you're probably right. Didn't have a whole lot to do with this thread. I thought it did, and I thought the person who wrote it did a great job, so I posted it. Ahh well, guess it went off topic too much

course I'm right. you'll find that happens frequently. :p

Just one question. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, I'm just curious, Why do you choose to view the Bible as more myth than truth? I only ask because the way you word it seems like you think it could be either but you have decided to view it as myth. reasoning?

[Keronothnetophobia]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
I debated whether to post to this, and I guess it got the best of me........or maybe the will of God took over. God is perfect, always was, always will be. Anything He puts His name to is also perfect and in His will.

Stuff, I only feel sad for you. :bluesad:
Gail and I dont' always agree....but you are a wise wise woman and your passion and love for God amazes me. (HUGZ)

[katiekat]

Originally posted by DoubleEdgeSword
I couldn't get to the first site, it looks like a member site.

The second site is interesting, but in the majority of his short essays, he makes assertions but doesn't always back them up with sources. I really found nothing to make me change my mind. And some of what he says isn't proof at all. In one essay he says that because there are doubts about the veracity of point A , then his assertion must be true. It is the same as saying that if nobody can prove absolutely why the dinorsours disappeared, then that proves that aliens came and abducted them. It is a classic fallacy of logic.

http://www.grantjeffrey.com/ and go to Products and then Grant Jeffrey Products. There's a list of books, but the one you might be interested in is called "The Signature of God." I don't know why the link didn't work but I'm sorry about that. It's not a member site, just a shopping link to their stuff. Oh well...

As for the second site, I know he doesn't put much up but short essays. I have some videos and I've seen him speak, so that's mostly how I'm familiar with him. I just don't get the whole evolution thing and Big Bang and all that. It's stupid logic if you ask me.

To everyone here: Do we have to fight about it? Let's just all agree that we don't believe the same and that's that. I know some people like to argue about things just for the sake of arguing so let's just let it go now. Thank you. I'm done now...

[katiekat]

Originally posted by bluehorizonx10
I debated whether to post to this, and I guess it got the best of me........or maybe the will of God took over. God is perfect, always was, always will be. Anything He puts His name to is also perfect and in His will.

In my mind, you are so right there!

[Stuff_Like_That]

Originally posted by bekahbeans
course I'm right. you'll find that happens frequently. :p

Just one question. I'm not saying you're wrong or right, I'm just curious, Why do you choose to view the Bible as more myth than truth? I only ask because the way you word it seems like you think it could be either but you have decided to view it as myth. reasoning?
i'll keep that in mind then ;)

I *try* my best to keep an open mind about all religions. Let's face it, no one really knows the truth. For all we know, maybe we should be worshiping flowers. There's certain ideas in christanity that I just can't stand, and that's why I choose to believe it's myth.
Belifes such as the one this thread originally stated. Only christians get into heaven. And I was raised catholic (the microsoft of christianity), and some of them believe they're the only ones who will get into heaven. That whole concept just irritates me. I know amazing people who are atheist that lead good lives, even better than some christians i know, but because of their belifes they wouldn't get into heaven? it just doesn't seem right.
then there's the thing about homosexuality being forbidden. I'm bisexual, so this one doesn't work for me either.
Then there's the belife, I think it came from Genisus, where it says that god gave humans domination over all animals. I disagree with this. I like to think that animals are equal to humans. Call me a wacko peta member, but that's what I like to think. Not that god created animals just for us to use and abuse.

Those are just a few of the things I don't like about christianity and why i choose to view it as myth. I'll try to keep a more open mind though. Cuz like I said, no one really knows the truth

[bekahbeans]

You do that ;)

Yeah I see where you're coming from. Very interesting. I'm a Christian, and I agree with you about the things you dislike. Well...except for the animal one you wacko peta member. :p Are you a vegetarian?

[exbeliever]

Look at it another way. A life for many lives. Jesus died for everyone, that is how much He loves us. Its whether you believe that or not.


Hmmmm...I just have come out of Christianity after 30 years and never once heard the following Psalms quoted in Sunday school....First I think of what I was taught "Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world." Most christians believe that the bible is the infallible, inerrent, INSPIRED, word of the almighty god. So with that in mind, I hardly feel sympathetic to what christ did for me when considering the "infallible, inerrent" word of god.

Psalm 137:8-9 " O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,

happy is he who repays you

for what you have done to us-

he who seizes your infants

and dashes them against the rocks. "

Just to make sure that this is approved by god we can rest assured it is from his spoken words of prophecy in Isaiah 13 regarding Babylon

13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;

and the earth will shake from its place

at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,

in the day of his burning anger.



14 Like a hunted gazelle,

like sheep without a shepherd,

each will return to his own people,

each will flee to his native land.

15 Whoever is captured will be thrust through;

all who are caught will fall by the sword.

16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes;

their houses will be looted and their wives ravished (RAPED)


How I ever "loved" such a tyrant is beyond me.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Wow. I abandoned Christianity when I was pretty young. I can't even imagine what it's like after 30 years. It must really play with your emotions. Was it something you'd be thinking about for a while? Did something happen that was the last straw? How have you come to terms with your decision?

[exbeliever]

Wow. I abandoned Christianity when I was pretty young. I can't even imagine what it's like after 30 years. It must really play with your emotions. Was it something you'd be thinking about for a while? Did something happen that was the last straw? How have you come to terms with your decision?

It was very hard. I'm 35 now and have believed since age 5 although I drifted from church and the Bible unil 5 years ago, but regardless over those years, I prayed, and firmly believed in God and that Jesus died for my sins. 5 years ago, I got serious for God and if anyone tried to live for Jesus, it was me. The tears streamed down my face singing "Here I am to Worship", "Holy, You are So Holy", "Silent Night", etc. Third Day, Rita Springer, and good old hymnals were on my lips, in my mind and heart constantly. I LOVED God with all of my heart so much that I stopped trying to be just a "Sunday" Christian and actually started reading the bible. At first, the numerous obvious contradictions and errors started jumping out but even minus that minus all of that what the last straw was for me, was actually reading the bible and discovering who it was I was giving all my thoughts and love too.

I kept hearing "Not under law, UNDER GRACE!" But, because I started reading the Bible for myself I questioned why if that were the case why do we have sermons with the Malachi scripture on tithing regarding "robbing god"? My pastor had no excuse for this and no NT only church has. They say the Old laws are capute except for the "moral" laws yet, tithing isn't "moral". That's when I realized that something was really wrong. That is when I started realizing that scriptures were being "cut and pasted" to suit the pastor/church. I noticed the same with online churces too, of all denominations.

Then I started noticing glaring words from Jesus about hating your family (btw...the greek word is literally HATE, not love less like apologists try and say), Jesus said people would be rewarded 100 FOLD for leaving their wives, childrens, family, etc. I was all set to leave my family for Jesus, but then I started reading some very troubling OT passages. I was sickened and that isn't the only saying either, there are tons of scriptures where God commands the murder of thousands, including women, children and infants. They are followed by HAVE NO PITY! Moses was angry with Joshua because he didn't kill ALL the Midianites but spared women and children, so Joshua was told "kill all the women who have known men and ALL the male BOYS, but keep the women children for yourselves." Makes me want to vomit, this monster is no different the Allah. God allowed women as war spoils and they had to shave their heads and mourn for awhile then the Israelites could marry them. That is RAPE, out and out rape, no way would I willingly marry someone who slaughtered my helpless children and family!

Imagine the days of the flood, the drowning, the slow painful, terrorizing feeling of the water creeping up around, no land in site, men, women, children, NEWBORN BABIES, gasping for air. What kind of all MERCIFUL god is this? Is he not "god" afterall? Why not just spare the world by clicking his omnipotent fingers and make everyone simply just disappear? That is JESUS, according to Christians, even though I grew out of the whole trinity lie awhile back too. Jesus loves the little children, if that is love, I'll take hate.

I've come to terms because I now realize that the god of the hebrew bible is a man made story. A perfect god would never allow for such blatant errors and contradictions. The god of the hebrew bible PURPOSEFULLY hardens hearts. Before Moses went back to Egypt God spoke these words in Exodus 4:21-22 " The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
So much for that free will, eh? But why? Why does he harden Pharoahs heart, right? But no, God takes credit for his actions in Exodus 14:4 " And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I WILL GAIN GLORY FOR MYSELF THROUGH PHAROAH and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD ." All for HIS GLORY, innocent children struck dead at the hands of the mighty god, pharoah didn't stand a chance. God CHOOSES whom to harden and whom to soften, those are HIS words. I refuse, even IF the bible was true, to worship such a hypocritical monster. We are told not to murder, God murders, not to hate, God hates, not to be proud, if causing terror to prove ones glory isn't proud then I don't know what is, the list goes on. Apologists try to explain gods behavior away but, as you'll notice, god has no problem taking credit for such atrocities.

Jesus says that the people who go to HEAVEN are the ones who "fed, clothed, him, etc." Why doesn't he take his own advice? Far be it for the almighty god to actually FEED the starving children in this world. Why not rain down some manna for those innocent kids with their bloated bellies? No, they have to die, slowly, in agonizing pain that we cannot even imagine. That is why I do not believe in the god of the bible, he is the ultimate "do as I say, not as I do authority". As far as the fiery hell that the loving jesus speaks of, why, oh why, throughout the WHOLE Old Testament was anyone not warned of such a thing as eternal torment? Hell is from pagan religions that kept into the new testament christianity. Not ONE warning of eternal torment in the entire Old Testament. Hell was a place to be buried and ghenna was a place of punishement that DID NOT last eternally!! Isaiah 66 says that the saved will look upon the CARCASSES of the dead and their worm will not die. Key words "carcass, dead". Worms would be the maggots emerging from the dead bodies, creating flies, that create maggots, and so goes the circle of life. BTW..notice the punishment for those who eat the flesh of pigs.

Right now, I need to focus on fixing and restoring life to my family. I'm so grateful that my husband has dealt with me and that my children are understanding. It was not a hard decision to acknowledge this AFTER, and only after, I read the bible and passages for myself as a WHOLE, not bits and pieces sugarcoated to make god seem kind and loving. When people thumb their noses and have no pity for children of war and what they go through, to me, that is a hardened heart, however, GOD INSPIRES that we should be HAPPY when the children of our enemies are "DASHED TO PIECES ON THE ROCKS!" But, didn't god realize that he would say "turn the other cheek" in the new testament? Not to be happy when bad things happen to your enemies? Oops, I forgot, he doesn't have to be obedient to his own rules.

[exbeliever]

oh but why? Life is good to me. There's much bigger issues and people far more worthy of your sympahty. How about the people in Haiti? Now there's some people that could use your love

I Totally Agree! Glad to see you hanging in there. A few months ago, I would have been trying to save you from your miserable existance as a non-christian. :hah:

So many people happy, so many receiving miracles, so many doing good that aren't christians but when you're only seeing it from that view, like I was, you think even the best of atheists or agnostics are heathen sinners, doomed for the pit of hell.

[Spiderweb]

Glad you thought about the issue enough and have come to a resolution, exB Hope things work out for you. :)

I was tempted to become a Christian early this year after I had some kind of calling. But I have since realised that how do I know it's Jesus calling or just God?

Christians would say throw yourself in the calling and just accept the Bible but I cannot accept it.

It reeks so much of patriachal, highly politicised book of authority which has been picked and mixed at will from so many texts. I'm currently reading book proposing that Christianity is based on Pagan beliefs ('The Jesus Mysteries' by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy). Whether or not The Da Vinci Code is bull or not I'm so happy that it has brought to such a mainstream audience at least the idea that Christianity could be the greatest deceit and cover up of all time.

[exbeliever]

Glad you thought about the issue enough and have come to a resolution, exB Hope things work out for you. :)

I was tempted to become a Christian early this year after I had some kind of calling. But I have since realised that how do I know it's Jesus calling or just God?

Christians would say throw yourself in the calling and just accept the Bible but I cannot accept it.

It reeks so much of patriachal, highly politicised book of authority which has been picked and mixed at will from so many texts. I'm currently reading book proposing that Christianity is based on Pagan beliefs ('The Jesus Mysteries' by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy). Whether or not The Da Vinci Code is bull or not I'm so happy that it has brought to such a mainstream audience at least the idea that Christianity could be the greatest deceit and cover up of all time.


Spider, I am getting ready to read a book entitled "History Begins at Sumer". - They were around way before the Hebrews and I believe that Abraham came from there. There is an ongoing debate as to which culture was in place first, the Sumerians or Egyptians but regardless many things in their cultures and laws were in place BEFORE Moses. On the Ten Commandments thread I posted the 42 Egyptian Laws that were established before the Law of Moses. Also, do a search of the "Code of Hammrubi" - wow, many OT laws are similiar to those which were before the Bible. Seeing how those laws were in place before the bible, it does take away from the uniqueness of their laws. For instance, the egyptian priests, in order to be clean were NOT allowed to eat pork.