any wiccans/pegans here?

[Stuff_Like_That]

Just wondering. I find Wiccan and Peganism the most fasinating belifes of all. I'd like to practice it myself, but I'm not sure if I believe in it enough yet.

anyone practice it here? have any spells worked for you?

[tiger_rascal]

Tell me what interests you most about Wicca.

[Stuff_Like_That]

I think it's mostly cuz I'm such a tree hugger, and Wicca connects with the Earth and nature. It's also one of the few religions that holds a woman equal to a man. That's a pretty nice philosphy :)

[tiger_rascal]

Christianity holds men and women equally. Some men may not, but God does. God created everyone equally. Its how humans react to that. Christianity happens to be a widely altered religion.

[tiger_rascal]

I love nature! I consider science to be the study of Gods creation. :biggrin:

[bekahbeans]

what in the world is peganism?

and just out of curiosity, how many religions have you studied?

[Stuff_Like_That]

I tried Christianity. Catholisism actually (the Microsoft of Christianity), but it wasn't for me. I've gone to non-denominational churches, and those were actually pretty nice. If I ever went back to Christianity, that's probably where I'd go. Though they'll have to altar the belife about homosexuals going to hell before I could ever go back to it.

Science isn't bad. Except for physics. Now THAT is a tool of something evil...(sorry, I hate algerbra, heh)

[Stuff_Like_That]

what in the world is peganism?
did I spell it wrong? Sorry. Pegan...Peganism? I dunno, it made sense in my head :o

[bekahbeans]

PAgan ;)

[Stuff_Like_That]

PAgan ;)
LOL! I knew that, I swear :p. Thanx, Bekah ;)

[FAJTAFan123]

Here is the definition of Paganism from dictionary.com:

pa·gan Audio pronunciation of "paganism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pgn)
n.

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.


adj.

1. Not Christian, Muslim, or Jewish.
2. Professing no religion; heathen.
3. Neo-Pagan.

I personally do not know much about it. But from my understanding it is a belief in many gods and is very spiritual. There are rituals and sacrifices sometimes. There is a false belief that people who are labeled as Goth are pagans. But that isn't completely true.This (http://www.jadedgothgirl.com/wicca/index.html) is a site that I found that seems to have a lot of info on Wicca, if anyone is interested. I have a minor interest in it myself but more from an educational standpoint than actually trying to follow it.

[BrianWilly]

Technically, as a Buddhist, I am a pagan.I went to a vegetarian BBQ at my mom's temple today to celebrate the 4th of July. I'd say that you haven't had real meat until you've had imitation meat...except that it isn't particularly true, so I won't say it.

Um, anyway.

I've been interested in some other pagan religions as well, but not enough to really believe. Shamanistic cultures intrigue me...I can't really decide if I really believe that they're travelling to the spirit world or just on a very good high.

Wicca really is a very interesting sort of religion. I've read a bit about their ideas about the masculine energy versus the feminine energy, and the balance of each. Say what you will, but there's no denying that Judeochristianity and a whole bunch of other religions, amongst them Buddhism, are incredibly patriarchal.

I also liked the whole concept of nature-worship, the concept of Gaea, and the interconnectedness of everything. Though I don't know about spells...I can maybe understand the concept of ritualistic magick having a great deal of cultural importance to wiccans, but to me the idea of actually casting spells seems more like something that Neo-Pagans will try for the sense of power. Of course, I could be wrong.

I have a theory that the modern day conception of Satan really came from a mix of the pre-Christian conceptions of Pan, the wantonly obnoxious chaotic hairy horned goat-god, and the Green Man, Pagan representation of the wilderness.

http://paganwiccan.about.com/ That's a site that's been pretty helpful to me whenever I felt like reading up about some Pagan concepts.

[Ada]

I cannot actually say that I follow any particular religion, but my philosophy about faith is to always take the positive of everything. Therefore, I've found incredibly interesting concepts in Budism and Taoism, as well as in Hinduism, and in Wicca, among some other.

I don't know much, but my only advice about it, as you asked specifically about them, is not to get caught in the spells side of it. In my understanding they do not "work", as you put it. Like mantras, they only help you meditate, concentrate, and fill your mind and spirit with positive energy and ideas, so that you will be able to achieve whatever you want to, and see the good side of everything. Karma.

[smackers]

[QUOTE=tiger_rascal]Christianity holds men and women equally.[QUOTE]

Sure it does.

[tiger_rascal]

Thanks for agreeing with me. :)

[smackers]

Thanks for agreeing with me. :)

No prob Bob.

[bekahbeans]

Actually, God is neither male nor female according to the Christian Bible. In addition it states that "God is not a man..."



Christianity is repressive towards women is a historical truth yes, but not a Biblical one.

[bekahbeans]

Jesus Christ's human form was male. You couldn't expect him to come in human form and not assume a gender.

God in and of itself is genderless.

[bekahbeans]

I suggest that the fact that Jesus Christ was male is evidence of a gender bias in the culture in which He was present. God incarnate had to be in a form that could get things done, and who people would pay more attention to. Sadly, that meant not female, but male.

Could God have sent a woman and have been successful? I'm sure, as God can do anything IMO. However, I also believe that God works within our cultures and time periods which is why Jesus came in the form of a male. And big deal. Had He come in the form of a female it would still be a gender bias. He had to be one or the other. I doubt many would have listened to an androgonous person.

[Ada]

Its "Him". Always have been. And the claim that christianity holds men and women equally is quite hilarious. The bible clearly states the submission of women to men, starting by Eve. All biblical crucial characters are males but Maria and Maria Magdalena, and both of them portray the two icons of female roles in christianity: Mother/nurturer, and unconscious sinner.

[bekahbeans]

Not true. Eve was never assigned a submissive role until she sinned. It was a punishment, not what was originally intended. And passages about submissiveness read in context and not isolated for the intent of putting men in power reveal very different intperpretations.

And there are lots of other women in the Bible. Ruth, Deborah, Esther are some excellent examples.

"Him" has nothing to do with who God is. It has to do with how human beings have represented God using their language.

[Ada]

¿?¿? Wasn't the bible literally God's Words? Now, if it is how humans represented God using their language, it opens a whole new dimension of possible mistakes and missinterpretations.

Bible interpretations are endless, and surely we wont come to a meeting point about this, but still, you just have to take a look around to see that christianity separates clearly the roles of male and female, and the latest is submitted to male. You can argue that all you want, but take a look at the facts, at Christianity as it is.

[bekahbeans]

^I'd agree with that.



¿?¿? Wasn't the bible literally God's Words? Now, if it is how humans represented God using their language, it opens a whole new dimension of possible mistakes and missinterpretations.

Bible interpretations are endless, and surely we wont come to a meeting point about this, but still, you just have to take a look around to see that christianity separates clearly the roles of male and female, and the latest is submitted to male. You can argue that all you want, but take a look at the facts, at Christianity as it is.Now, if it is how humans represented God using their language, it opens a whole new dimension of possible mistakes and missinterpretations.

Bible interpretations are endless, and surely we wont come to a meeting point about this, but still, you just have to take a look around to see that christianity separates clearly the roles of male and female, and the latest is submitted to male. You can argue that all you want, but take a look at the facts, at Christianity as it is.

The Bible was inspired by God. His own hand did not write it...as God may or may not even have a hand. It was through people that it was written. What was written is not considered as flawed by most Christians. However, our interpretations can be flawed and yes as human beings we are bound by what we can express using a pen and paper. You can think because it says "He" for God that that means God is male but you're sadly mistaken as the Bible itself will point out.

I know the facts perfectly well. I am very familiar with the Bible, thanks. I know what Christianity in the Bible is, and what Christianity in most churches is. These are two seperate things. Look at the facts, look at the Bible, men and women are not seperated clearly into roles.

[Stuff_Like_That]

I cannot actually say that I follow any particular religion, but my philosophy about faith is to always take the positive of everything. Therefore, I've found incredibly interesting concepts in Budism and Taoism, as well as in Hinduism, and in Wicca, among some other.

I don't know much, but my only advice about it, as you asked specifically about them, is not to get caught in the spells side of it. In my understanding they do not "work", as you put it. Like mantras, they only help you meditate, concentrate, and fill your mind and spirit with positive energy and ideas, so that you will be able to achieve whatever you want to, and see the good side of everything. Karma.
I dunno, I kinda look at spells as the Wicca version of prayer. At least that's how it seemed from my studies on it. And I've heard some stories of them "working" too. Though I'm not sure if I believe that or not.

Ahh, I love Budhism. That's a fasinating religion as well.

[Stuff_Like_That]

As for the Christinaity men/woman argument...it all depends on what denomination of Christianity you're refering too.

Like I said, I used to be Catholic, and they hardly see men and woman as equals at all. It took them FOREVER to allow altar girls. I also remember during my confirmation (which was about...5 maybe 6 years ago), the bishop/cardinal that was there was pretty prejudice to all the girls being confirmed.

On the other hand, non-demoninational churches hold men and woman pretty equally. At least I didn't notice any sort of discrimination at the one I attended.

So like I said, I believe it all depends on the denomination

[BrianWilly]

Interestingly, in the most ancient Hebrew texts, God was said to have a female side...at times practically personified into a consort or a wife. "Her" name is Shekhinah or Skekhinah.

This was, of course, in the time of the matriarchal sects and societies, when the woman's role as lifegiver and caregiver was held in equal if not higher esteem than the male standard.

We can't really place all the blame on western religions for all that decline of the feminine ideal in that era; eastern cultures are quite as infamous for their unequal, sexist roles for women. Was it a vital aspect of these cultures? Sure. Was it a good vital aspect of these cultures? Well, it was probably good for the men.

On that note, I'm curious...if submission and birth-pangs were Eve's punishment, then what was Adam's? Violence? War? But I thought those things didn't actually happen until Cain and Abel.

[bekahbeans]

To toil the earth with his hands in hard labor.

[Ada]

Uhm... and isn't that a separation of roles that clearly submits women to men?? I mean, women will obey men and suffer birth, etc... and men will work. Is it me the only person that finds the clear discrimination in that?

[bekahbeans]

I'm not in the mood to explain it to you right now, sorry. Read the whole Bible, then you might get it.

[tiger_rascal]

Actually, mans punishment was to provide for his family also. That is a major responsibility.

[tiger_rascal]

If you want to consider humans punishment for sin as roles, more power to you.

Im simply stating what I believe the Bible says. It gives us reasons why we are the way we are. God gave Adam (man) and Eve (woman) specific instructions for reasons.

[Ada]

I'm not in the mood to explain it to you right now, sorry. Read the whole Bible, then you might get it.

I already did read it... so I guess if I didn't get it already, I wont ever do it. But again, if the punishment would have been for BOTH to labour and provide for THEIR families, it'd be different. When you say the man is the one that provides, you inmediately submit the woman, who needs a man to provide her while she gives birth to the children.

Today's violence against women, a really important problem at least here in Spain, finds one of its main supports in the fact that women can't get away from their husbands, because their were raised in a christian enviroment that taught them to take care of their family and their homes while the man provided. Therefore, they have no money or way to start earning it. Submited.

I'm sorry you're not either in the mood to get what I am trying to explain.

[tiger_rascal]

I dont see that as a bad thing. If the woman wants, she can stay home while the man works his tail off to care for his wife and children. Whats wrong with that? She is still equal. She is not a slave to her husband.

[bekahbeans]

I already did read it... so I guess if I didn't get it already, I wont ever do it. But again, if the punishment would have been for BOTH to labour and provide for THEIR families, it'd be different. When you say the man is the one that provides, you inmediately submit the woman, who needs a man to provide her while she gives birth to the children.

Today's violence against women, a really important problem at least here in Spain, finds one of its main supports in the fact that women can't get away from their husbands, because their were raised in a christian enviroment that taught them to take care of their family and their homes while the man provided. Therefore, they have no money or way to start earning it. Submited.

I'm sorry you're not either in the mood to get what I am trying to explain.

I get what you're saying - I've heard it all before. Just because people abuse scripture and twist it to suit them doesn't mean that's what it says. Like I said, the Bible read in context and in it's entirety shows that both men and women are supposed to submit to one another, and are to love and respect each other in partnership, not in hierarchy. Niether is created above the other. You can't read it passively; it doesn't work that way.

I've already had this argument with several people recently so no, I'm not in the mood to have it again. And from your posts you already have your mind made up so it would be pointless.

[Ada]

Ok, I guess I'm also taking both Tiger Rascal and you to be saying the same things, when you obviously are not. So we'll leave it at that. However, thanks for trying to help me understand.

[bekahbeans]

Nope, we weren't saying the same things. And sorry I am not more co-operative...

This is me, when I'm pissy. Yay.

[tiger_rascal]

If they want to. I feel its completely up to the couple in the relationship and nobody should criticize them for it.

[tiger_rascal]

Note that I said "If the woman wants...".

[tiger_rascal]

If you are a Christian it could be. ;)

[BrianWilly]

But bekah's description of the female submissive role and your revelation of the male working role seems to say that according to the Bible there is no such choice. Men do the work and women submit, period. Not that I'm advocating this, or even suggesting that it's the correct perspective, but it's not as if it's written "Eve, you must submit...if you want to." *shrug*

[tiger_rascal]

All Im saying is live and let live.

Its sad to see relationships criticized because they follow their faith.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Just out of curiosity, do Christian marriage vows still contain the word "obey?" And is it just the woman who promises to obey the man?

[bekahbeans]

^mine sure as F*uck won't.

edit: I take that back. If the guy says obey too then I have no problem saying it.

I've known since I was 8 that I wasn't going to obey my husband if I didn't want to. I read one of the Laura Ingalls Wilder books, the one where she gets married, and she refused to say it. It was an epiphany. I love that woman.

[bekahbeans]

Nothing wrong with following their faith. But I will pick up on Brian's point. You and Bekah seem to be contradicting each other here. Bekah is making a claim of equality and lack of defined roles. You are making a claim of defined roles, while somewhat disingenuously claiming that your scheme where the male has responsibility for the family is not hierarchacal.

Each of you make these claims from a biblical perspective. So, it seems to me that following the Christian faith can allow for either interpretation, which basically means that neither interpretation could be called "the" biblical interpretation. In fact, I would suggest that each of you are reading into the bible your own personal preferences. I do not blame or criticize you for this. I think it is impossible not to do so.

My criticism is reserved for those who would deny that their own subjective viewpoint, their context, biology, psychology and learning do not impact the way they understand the bible.


Very true. But I would suggest that though it is very possible we are reading using our subjective viewpoints, I do think that there are a lot of people who read the Bible incorrectly. I don't think that's judgemental, I think it's just true. A lot of people don't read it with the cultural context in mind and they latch on to one or two scriptures to make a rule or law, without taking the whole Bible into account. I think that is a large reason for differing interpretations.

[tiger_rascal]

I see nothing wrong with the woman saying "obey" in her vows. If the man and woman truly loves each other, they have nothing to fear or hide.

[BrokenHalo]

I see nothing wrong with the woman saying "obey" in her vows. If the man and woman truly loves each other, they have nothing to fear or hide.
I agree there's nothing wrong with the vow to love, honor, and obey, but in my opinion, it should be vowed by either both man and woman or neither--not just a one sided obey-situation. For those who take the vows as seriously as they shoud (alas many *don't*) it would be giving the man a whole lot more power in the relationship...and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[bekahbeans]

^yeah no kidding.

If you're so ok with it Chad, you say obey and let your wife skip out on it.

[Ada]

The truth of the Christian God exists because human beings believe it to be so. Whether or not this God exists outside of our understanding is unknowable...and I would claim irrelevant.

Very true.

[tiger_rascal]

No problem Bekah. I would do that for my one true love. However, Im not sure if I will ever marry and if I do, we will probably write our own vows. I can obey the person I love within reason, that is where the honor and respect part comes in.

[Leezard]

You're getting a little sassy lately Bekah ;)

Yeah, I won't be vowing to obey my husband unless he's gonna be vowing to obey me too.

[tiger_rascal]

Oh, I forgot, I wont be having the traditional wedding ceremony. I dont believe a couple even has to "marry" and have written proof of their love. Todays wedding ceremonies seem to be just an excuse to have a big party or whatever, and in the end that will not keep a marriage together.

[bekahbeans]

^not the wedding ceremonies I've been too. But I probably know much cooler people than you do.

I'm just kidding, don't freak out. :p



As for the sassyness comment, Liz, I'm sure it's all your influence :p

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Your cousin's wedding sounds like my kind of affair. I am looking for a bluegrass group to join.

[Stuff_Like_That]

my poor thread is so hijacked :(

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Oops, sorry.

I do know some wiccan bluegrass pickers. :)

Bekah.. bad girl, bad!

[bekahbeans]

my poor thread is so hijacked :(


get used to it.


bwahahahah *runs off with the original thread*

[bekahbeans]

Oops, sorry.

I do know some wiccan bluegrass pickers. :)

Bekah.. bad girl, bad!

Wha? What'd I do? *blinks innocently*

[Stuff_Like_That]

heh...it's kinda symbolic in a way that it's being hijacked on a conversation about christianity :p

[bekahbeans]

what the fugg is that supposed to mean, bitch!?!?!

Jk, I'm in such a weird mood right now...which means it's probably time to go to bed.

:D:D

[DoubleEdgeSword]

They are very particular about the kind of bluegrass they play. They don't play more popularized forms.



Ahh, purists. Yes, I know the type.

How many bluegrass musicians does it take to change a lightbulb?



Four. One to change the bulb and three to stand around and bitch because it's electric.

[~HoneyRain~]

My friend is a so called Wiccan....I hate that that is the path she has chosen to take...but it is her life..and she has to live it. :greyno:

[*Candy*]

My friend is a so called Wiccan....I hate that that is the path she has chosen to take...but it is her life..and she has to live it. :greyno:
I read a book about the Wiccan religion, and I would not have chosen that same smiley...... I think she could be very happy with Wicca. It is not Satanism or some weird cult, or "witch craft" (as people think of it traditionaly), though there are spells and such. And why do you say "So called Wiccan"? Is she not practicing Wicca "right"? Or do you think that it's just Witch Craft or something of that sort and should not have an acctual name like Wicca? Wicca is very peacefull and loving, I do not see why you would hate that choice, unless you are worried that your friend is going to fry in hell.

[Stuff_Like_That]

My friend is a so called Wiccan....I hate that that is the path she has chosen to take...but it is her life..and she has to live it. :greyno:
why does it bother you?

[~HoneyRain~]

While I admit I do not fully understand..or care to understand for that matter.. all there is about Wicca, I do know that it is not satanic or some form of witch craft. That doesn't make a difference to me. She is also a pagan. So not only does she not believe in God, but she has put another idol before God. Once again, this is my faith. I know not everyone thinks of it that way...Oh...and I said "so called" wiccan because to me...it's a trivial thing...I guess I was scoffing at it.

[Ada]

No problem Bekah. I would do that for my one true love. However, Im not sure if I will ever marry and if I do, we will probably write our own vows. I can obey the person I love within reason, that is where the honor and respect part comes in.

Regarding the discussion about vows that plegde obedience and so on, there is a beautiful Celtic Wedding Bow that stress the independence of the two people, and that I've always loved. I also like the fact that it is of christian tradition, even tho Ireland has always have a strong pagan and mystic background.
I've looked up the vow, it is as follows:

You cannot possess me, for I belong to myself,
but while we both wish it, I give you that which is mine to give.
You cannot command me, for I'm a free person,
but I shall serve you in those ways you require,
and the honeycomb will taste sweeter coming from my hand.
I plegde to you that yours will be the name I cry aloud in the night,
and the eyes into which I smile in the morning.
I plegde to you my living and my dying, each equally in your care,
I shall be a shield for your back, and you for mine,
I shall not slender you, nor you me.
I shall honor you above all others,
and when we quarrell we shall do so in private,
and tell no strangers our grievances.
This is my wedding vow to you.
This is the marriage of equals.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

While I admit I do not fully understand..or care to understand for that matter.. all there is about Wicca, I do know that it is not satanic or some form of witch craft. That doesn't make a difference to me. She is also a pagan. So not only does she not believe in God, but she has put another idol before God. Once again, this is my faith. I know not everyone thinks of it that way...Oh...and I said "so called" wiccan because to me...it's a trivial thing...I guess I was scoffing at it.

Yes, yes.... you wouldn't want to confuse the truth with facts.

Something I've always wondered about.... why would God give us good sense and the power of reasoning if he did not want us to use them?

[~HoneyRain~]

lol...I'm not one of those people who are in pursuit of completely understanding God and His laws. I just rely on my faith that He is real, alive and true... and I like it that way. I don't need to know why or how ...I just know. And because I know...I've been able to get through many tough times in my life...I can honestly say that I've felt God's hands wrapped around me after a deep prayer. That power can not be matched... hmm...i've gone a tangent. I'll end this post here. :p

[DoubleEdgeSword]

That's great for you. I just wish you could afford others the same respect for thier beliefs instead of scoffing at them. Judging others' beliefs as "trivial" is my biggest complaint with many Christians. Seeing one's religion as superior causes divisiveness at the very least and on the other end of the scale, persecution, torture, murder and wars.

[~HoneyRain~]

Seeing one's religion as superior causes divisiveness at the very least and on the other end of the scale, persecution, torture, murder and wars.

Only if you act on that belief...i do not treat others badly because of their beliefs. But MY belief still stands and I wish people would respect that, also. Why is it okay for people of other faiths to voice their opinion that there is no God or that Jesus isn't son of God?...to me, that is a slap in the face. That is just like saying that MY faith is trivial. You see...people of all faiths are guilty of the same things..not just Christians. There are people out there who think I'm insane for believing in a higher power. Believe me, Christians are subjected to the same disrespect.

However, I do not believe anyone deserves to be persecuted or harmed because of their beliefs. That is not what my faith is about. I realize that some "Christians" stray away from that particular lesson...and may God have mercy on their souls for they are sinning. I really do not judge other people just because they believe differently than I. As i said, my best friend is pegan and she is a great person. I scoffed at the religion (or lack there of)..not her. What am I suppose to do? Say being a pegan is okay? I'm sorry. That's not going to happen because that's not what I believe.

[~HoneyRain~]

So? She scoffs at mine...constantly! lol It really baffles me how people point fingers at Christians for being biased and negative toward other faiths when many people do the same regarding Christians. And when asked about my view on peganism, I'm not going to accept it...simple as that. People have the right to choose and practice their own religion...that's fine. But I don't have to be in favor of all of them.

And about Jews and Muslims.. I don't know much about these religions except that they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ...right? If I'm wrong, enlighten me. Therefore, I wouldn't practice these religions..i wouldn't want my children to practice these religions. And I guess I should clarify "scoff"...I use the term loosely. I didn't mean it as "all people who practice such and such religion are bad"...I just meant that I do not accept them and am not in favor of them ('them' being those particular religions) I have absolutely nothing against people who practice different religions. And on the other hand... obviously the people who don't practice Christianity aren't in favor of or accept my religion. It's all a part of choosing how you want to live your life and what you want to believe.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Ah. I see oxymoron has beat me to it, and more succintly, I might add.

Carry on... ;)

[tiger_rascal]

Do people disrespect her religion or her view of her religion?

[~HoneyRain~]

Yes. But the spirit in which this is done could be more of "respect" than "scoffing." You can not expect people to respect your views if you "scoff" at theirs. You are merely perpetuating the problem. Exactly and it's also the other way around. Why should I go out of my way to be respectful when people call me crazy or say that it's stupid for me to believe in my God..in my religion. I don't think I'm any more self-righteous than someone who looks down upon me for "blindly believing" as some say. They obviously think they are right and that their opinion is better than mine. What exactly is your definition of "self righteous" anyway? Believing and being confident that your religion is the right religion? Well if that's the case, then I am guilty..and so is everyone else who practices any religion. Obviously Jews think their religion is the right one....because they're practicing Judaism...not Christianity...or Buddhism or anything else. If someone didn't think their religion was the "right" religion, they probably wouldn't practice it..they would practice something else. I understand that many people have issues with Christians because most of us are very vocal...which is absolutely okay. Afterall, the Lord said "Go out and tell the world..". However, I realize that many Christians cross the line of being merely "vocal" and start being forceful. I do not condone that nor do I do it. I wish all of we Christians weren't labelled as "self-righteous and biased" because of what some do.

[~HoneyRain~]

Do people disrespect her religion or her view of her religion?
I'm sorry, I just really see nothing wrong with thinking my religion is right...I guess I understand how non believers would be offended...and well...all I can do is appologize for that, but my belief and opinion still stands. I won't change it for anyone, much like my friend won't change her belief that there is no God...no matter how hard I try to sway her. Yes, i believe the souls of those who don't believe are damned.

Which brings me to something else...why do "non believers" seem to be so bothered by a belief system that they don't believe in? If you don't believe in it, then why would you worry about it? To not believe means that you don't follow the laws and well...beliefs...of said religion...meaning you wouldn't believe that your soul is damned...no worries, right? I've just always wondered about that...

[~HoneyRain~]

I don't treat people of other religions any differently than i treat other Christians...I don't think I am a better person than anyone of another religion. That is enough "respect".

[~HoneyRain~]

I think we all know..well most of us..that he's an ignorant idiot. He's one of the ones I was talking about who give us a bad name. He's forcing his faith on other people and using it to dictate. I know 5th graders who understand the concept of separation of church and state.

[bekahbeans]

Exactly and it's also the other way around. Why should I go out of my way to be respectful when people call me crazy or say that it's stupid for me to believe in my God..in my religion.

Because if you don't then you're just as bad as they are.

And you're certainly not following Christ's example if that is the type of attitude you have.

[~HoneyRain~]

Excuse me, but you don't know me and therefore, you have no idea whether or not I follow Christ's example. I am a sinner...I make mistakes just as anyone. But please don't pre-judge me. You don't know me at all. Judge my religion all you want, but don't judge me. And I said I'm not going to go out of my way....and I'm not. I believe I'm respectful enough as it is. What do they want me to do? Tell them that all is well and I think their religion is just? Once again, sorry but I am not going to do that when asked my opinion on the subject. I'm beginning to think that a few of your definitions of "respectful" is different than mine. It seems that you are equating being "respectful" with accepting and being okay with someone else's religion....while my definition of respect regards the actual person. I don't judge people based on their religion. I would never point my finger at a Jew or Muslim or even a pegan and say "You're a bad person and aren't worthy." Never. That is not my place to do that and I really don't believe that. Many of the nicest people I know are not Christians. I would never treat anyone of another religion differently than I would any Christian. To me, that is "respect" because I am not ridiculing you based on your creed. I am respecting you as a person and your decision. It's your life, not mine, and in that sense, I am one of the most respectful people.

[bekahbeans]

:rolleyes:

Forget it. You totally missed the point.

[~HoneyRain~]

Yes I did because you didn't have one. :rolleyes:

[bekahbeans]

No, I most certainly did.

You're just too busy being defensive and assumptive to realize that.

[~HoneyRain~]

What? I'm not the one who is defensive. You all are the ones who got offended by my initial post. I am merely explaining myself. Your little *roll eyes* fit was unnecessary....but I'm the one who's defensive?

[~HoneyRain~]

I don't see what other point you're trying to make that's different than what others have said already...which is about my "lack of respect". That's all I've been responding to.

[bekahbeans]

What are you even talking about? We all were offended? Nice generalization there. I wasn't offended by anything. And I was addressing something totally different than anyone else here. But like I said, and as you've aptly demonstrated, you're too busy being defensive and assumptive to see that.

Here's another "fit" for you. :rolleyes: Dumb.

[~HoneyRain~]

When I said "all"...more than obviously I was referring to "all" that DID find something wrong with my post; hence, they responded to it (that includes you). And what exactly were you addressing? Tell me that...do you even know? Because I thought I explained myself thoroughly when responding to your comment. Therefore, you were unclear. You have two choices, you can either stop commenting on my posts altogether...or you can clarify what exactly you were "addressing". Maybe you're the one who missed my point.

And I've read several of your other posts, I know you're full of fits. ;)

[bekahbeans]

Good, I'm glad you know I'm full of them. They're beautiful things.

I didn't miss your point. And my point was perfectly clear. I am never unclear or wrong. You will get used to that. My point, stated more simply and obviously *sigh*, was that the attitude of "well they do this to me so why should I bother" is a bad attitude. I didn't say that was your attitude - but that's how you come across when you say things like, "Why should I go out of my way to be respectful when people call me crazy or say that it's stupid for me to believe in my God..in my religion."

I didn't say you in general were not following Christ's example. Who the hell does? <--see? Case in point. And I certainly wasn't addressing most of what you've said in this thread because I really don't care about most of it. I just thought you said something interesting in that one sentence that I felt like replying to.

So there.

[~HoneyRain~]

And I explained myself thoroughly regarding your "address". I didn't miss your point either. You think you're right all the time. Fine. I like living in my own little world too.

Have a nice day :)

[bekahbeans]

I had a feeling talking to someone of such lesser brain capacity than I would be a waste of time. But alas, I tried anyway.

I always have nice days. I am Bekah and that in and of itself makes every day superb.

[~HoneyRain~]

Okay :) http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_121.gif

[young again]

Obviously Jews think their religion is the right one....because they're practicing Judaism...

Actually, observant Jews think their religion is the right one for Jews (people born of a Jewish mother). They don't think it's THE right one for EVERYONE.

[bekahbeans]

The same is true for the vast majority of religions.

[Ink_Lady21]

I suggest that the fact that Jesus Christ was a male is evidence of a gender bias in Christianity. God incarnate was not a female...but a male.


As there also is belief and philosphies claiming the HOLY GRAIL is actually Mary Magdelene.... and the Pentacle the Pagan symbol *The star inside a circle*...was originally used by the Catholic curch. To represent the 5 wounds of Christ.

Grew up in a Roman Catholic family...
Went to Catholic School all my life...
Was an Altar Server...
Now I'm pagan... *shakes head* who woulda thought it?

[Ink_Lady21]

I'm beginning to think that a few of your definitions of "respectful" is different than mine.


No.... Really? Never woulda guessed...

[Ink_Lady21]

My friend is a so called Wiccan....I hate that that is the path she has chosen to take...but it is her life..and she has to live it. :greyno:


Whoa!!!

*Waves hands in the air* You say that likes it's a bad thing. What is this 'So-called'junk either she is or she's not. Or maybe she's just not explaining what she's doing or what she's feeling with finding her 'Religion' to you. Knowing blanantly that you do not approve.

I, however was lucky, my friends were very accepting.


Now, imo, reading something like that... does not bide well with me. Knowing that everyone has the right to their own opinion, I do not say much. However... you talk about someone finding a belief system... whether Christian or not. Think of it this way... AT LEAST THEY BELIEVE IN SOMETHING. My mother still gets up every Sunday and goes to church... My Aunt watches Mass every other day on TV... she's too sick to go out. Then there's me. Where I keep to my self and do and day what I need to when I need to.

Before anyone jumps down my throat for replying in a 'Forceful manner' what would ya'll have said if she had blanantly disrespected your belief system? Or would you not have? Maybe it's just Pagan... *BTW... P-A-G-A-N. Sorry that's just been irking me.* beliefs that bother you. Whatever it is... you just openly disrespected it. Now, God forbid, I said thing about your religion... I'd have a lawyer at my front door holding a law sit for Defammation of Character charges.

[Ink_Lady21]

I agree there's nothing wrong with the vow to love, honor, and obey, but in my opinion, it should be vowed by either both man and woman or neither--not just a one sided obey-situation. For those who take the vows as seriously as they shoud (alas many *don't*) it would be giving the man a whole lot more power in the relationship...and absolute power corrupts absolutely.


Dont understand why it couldn't be, "Love, Honor and Cherish" That word Obey... just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You use the word obey when referring to a pet that is not "obeying." Meaning not doing what you told them to do.

[bekahbeans]

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/AN878.gif

[Leezard]

Bah ha! Bekah do you like my new title and location? :biggrin:

[bekahbeans]

HA! Wonderful!!! :D

[PalestinianPride]

And about Jews and Muslims.. I don't know much about these religions except that they do not acknowledge Jesus Christ...right? If I'm wrong, enlighten me.

I was just skimming through this thread and saw this remark....I just wanted to say that in Islam we certainly do acknowledge and admire Jesus to the fullest extent. But,in our religion,we believe he is a prophet. Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Qur'an.

Ok,just wanted to clear that up. :)

[misty twilight]

Whoa!!!

*Waves hands in the air* You say that likes it's a bad thing. What is this 'So-called'junk either she is or she's not. Or maybe she's just not explaining what she's doing or what she's feeling with finding her 'Religion' to you. Knowing blanantly that you do not approve.

I, however was lucky, my friends were very accepting.


Now, imo, reading something like that... does not bide well with me. Knowing that everyone has the right to their own opinion, I do not say much. However... you talk about someone finding a belief system... whether Christian or not. Think of it this way... AT LEAST THEY BELIEVE IN SOMETHING. My mother still gets up every Sunday and goes to church... My Aunt watches Mass every other day on TV... she's too sick to go out. Then there's me. Where I keep to my self and do and day what I need to when I need to.

Before anyone jumps down my throat for replying in a 'Forceful manner' what would ya'll have said if she had blanantly disrespected your belief system? Or would you not have? Maybe it's just Pagan... *BTW... P-A-G-A-N. Sorry that's just been irking me.* beliefs that bother you. Whatever it is... you just openly disrespected it. Now, God forbid, I said thing about your religion... I'd have a lawyer at my front door holding a law sit for Defammation of Character charges.

Thank you for that :) After reading through all 8 pages of what has become an onslaught of Christianity vs. the world, I am disheartened. Having been a "Christian" most of my life, I recently have converted over to Wicca. I use quotes around the word Christian, because to me it is a very loosely used term :( I believed myself to be one of the "better" Christians, in the sense that I did not judge others, nor do I still, always tried to be good to others, still do, and kept the 10 commandments as well as I could. Still do. But I am no longer Christian. Does that make me a bad person? I think not.

The truth is, wiccans who hold true to their beliefs are not to far from the same beliefs as Christians...or Jews...or Hindus....or Buddhists...or any spiritual belief system, so-to-speak.

Eight words the Witches Rede fulfill:
If it Harms none, Do what Thou Will!


As a wiccan, I do accept there is a God, many of them, as well as a Goddess. I do not believe in a hell, therefore I could not possibly go somewhere I don't believe exists.

I also accept that your faith guides you on your path. I respect this. It is not my path, though our paths may bring us together. I believe this to be fate spinning her threads. The Gods work in mysterious ways. :)

And just for the record...the origination of the word pagan was actually a person who lived outside the city walls...so in a demented manner of speaking...we are all pagans ;)

[Angelface]

Thank you for that :) After reading through all 8 pages of what has become an onslaught of Christianity vs. the world, I am disheartened. Having been a "Christian" most of my life, I recently have converted over to Wicca. I use quotes around the word Christian, because to me it is a very loosely used term :( I believed myself to be one of the "better" Christians, in the sense that I did not judge others, nor do I still, always tried to be good to others, still do, and kept the 10 commandments as well as I could. Still do. But I am no longer Christian. Does that make me a bad person? I think not.

The truth is, wiccans who hold true to their beliefs are not to far from the same beliefs as Christians...or Jews...or Hindus....or Buddhists...or any spiritual belief system, so-to-speak.

Eight words the Witches Rede fulfill:
If it Harms none, Do what Thou Will!


As a wiccan, I do accept there is a God, many of them, as well as a Goddess. I do not believe in a hell, therefore I could not possibly go somewhere I don't believe exists.

I also accept that your faith guides you on your path. I respect this. It is not my path, though our paths may bring us together. I believe this to be fate spinning her threads. The Gods work in mysterious ways. :)

And just for the record...the origination of the word pagan was actually a person who lived outside the city walls...so in a demented manner of speaking...we are all pagans ;)Thank you.
Thank you for finally posting something intelligent and eloquent about this. Your words echo a lot of my own thoughts and beliefs, so I highlighted some of them , I hope you dont mind ;)

[BrianWilly]

Ooh, Mici, you turned Wiccan?

That's fascinating. I know a bunch about it, but never knew anyone who practiced. Well, seeing as how I'm in Santa Cruz, I probably do, but how often do you go up to people and are all, "Hey baby, who do you worship?"

...anypoo...

[misty twilight]

Turned Wiccan...that's an interesting phrasing :)

Yes, I have converted to wicca. Although it is not too far from my original beliefs when I thought I was a Christian.

[BrianWilly]

Yeah. My personal belief in the religious system is that mostly? They're just guides for people to live good, moral lives. You'd be surprised how many religions have their own version of the Ten Commandments, with killing, stealing, lying etc being at the top. Or, maybe you wouldn't be surprised:p.

[misty twilight]

Nope, not surprised. It makes sense. Every religion has to be based on something, and most are on a basic moral fiber :)

[Ink_Lady21]

Thank you for that :) After reading through all 8 pages of what has become an onslaught of Christianity vs. the world, I am disheartened. Having been a "Christian" most of my life, I recently have converted over to Wicca. I use quotes around the word Christian, because to me it is a very loosely used term :( I believed myself to be one of the "better" Christians, in the sense that I did not judge others, nor do I still, always tried to be good to others, still do, and kept the 10 commandments as well as I could. Still do. But I am no longer Christian. Does that make me a bad person? I think not.

The truth is, wiccans who hold true to their beliefs are not to far from the same beliefs as Christians...or Jews...or Hindus....or Buddhists...or any spiritual belief system, so-to-speak.

Eight words the Witches Rede fulfill:
If it Harms none, Do what Thou Will!


As a wiccan, I do accept there is a God, many of them, as well as a Goddess. I do not believe in a hell, therefore I could not possibly go somewhere I don't believe exists.

I also accept that your faith guides you on your path. I respect this. It is not my path, though our paths may bring us together. I believe this to be fate spinning her threads. The Gods work in mysterious ways. :)

And just for the record...the origination of the word pagan was actually a person who lived outside the city walls...so in a demented manner of speaking...we are all pagans ;)


*JUMPS UP AND DOWN*

That was very well put. Thank you!

Blessed be.

[~HoneyRain~]

Whoa!!!

*Waves hands in the air* You say that likes it's a bad thing. What is this 'So-called'junk either she is or she's not. Or maybe she's just not explaining what she's doing or what she's feeling with finding her 'Religion' to you. Knowing blanantly that you do not approve.

I, however was lucky, my friends were very accepting.


Now, imo, reading something like that... does not bide well with me. Knowing that everyone has the right to their own opinion, I do not say much. However... you talk about someone finding a belief system... whether Christian or not. Think of it this way... AT LEAST THEY BELIEVE IN SOMETHING. My mother still gets up every Sunday and goes to church... My Aunt watches Mass every other day on TV... she's too sick to go out. Then there's me. Where I keep to my self and do and day what I need to when I need to.

Before anyone jumps down my throat for replying in a 'Forceful manner' what would ya'll have said if she had blanantly disrespected your belief system? Or would you not have? Maybe it's just Pagan... *BTW... P-A-G-A-N. Sorry that's just been irking me.* beliefs that bother you. Whatever it is... you just openly disrespected it. Now, God forbid, I said thing about your religion... I'd have a lawyer at my front door holding a law sit for Defammation of Character charges.And I repeat, I don't like that she is choosing that path. I do not accept it. I think it's wrong. I want her to be a Christian....if you find that to be disrespectful....then so be it. You certainly aren't the only one. Do I force my religion down her throat? No, I do not. We've been friends for years...the subject of religion rarely comes up anymore...if at all. I still love her dearly and I know she is a great person. But still... I don't approve of her P-A-G-A-N-I-S-M, and I never will. She knows that; I know that and we've moved on. Our relationship is just fine and neither one of us accepts the other's religion. She has scoffed at mine as well.

**Btw...people blatantly disrespect my religion as well. I don't get up and arms about it because I know that everyone is entitled to their own system of belief. However, that doesn't mean that everyone has to be okay with everyone else's beliefs. I usually don't even discuss religion with people (and I rarely bite my tongue) because I know it's an extremely sensative subject. But I decided to voice my opinion on this topic...and look what happened. When discussing religion/politics or anything of that nature, someone is bound to get offended. It is unavoidable if we are all to tell the truth about what we really think.

[~HoneyRain~]

No.... Really? Never woulda guessed...
Well now ya know and I'm sure you'll never forget. *gasp*

As I probably said before, I haven't been back here in weeks so I'm unsure.... but I don't think I'm disrespectful at all. And regarding this:

I, however was lucky, my friends were very accepting.

Just because I don't accept my friend's religion, doesn't mean that I don't accept her, as a person. I like to think that people can get along with each other even though they do not agree on everything. Well I'll say this-- I can get along with people even if we do not agree.

I go to a very culturally diverse university, which means that there are many different religions being practiced by the students. If I turned my nose up at them, refused to associate with them, waved my finger in their faces, or harassed them in any way, then I would see a problem with myself. But I do not do that nor am I a hateful person. I think I may have given several of you the impression that I keep people of other religions at arm's length when that is not the case. And if that is not the impression, then I have nothing more to say. I truthfully voiced my thoughts in this thread, not intending to offend anyone. But I have, and all I can do is appologize for upsetting you, but I will not retract any of my statements.