The Paradox of God

[Ada]

Ever since I was little, this question always bothered me, maybe now someone here can clear this up for me. It is very simple.

First off, we admit that God exists today. And then, we claim that he is both omnipotent (allpowerfull), and endlessly good and benevolent. To me, this is a paradox. There are so many innocent children suffering right now in the world, that he can't be both of those things. If he is omnipotent, and doesn't save them, then he is not endlessly good, and if he is endlessly good, and doesn't save them, is because he is not omnipotent...

Of course, there is the explanation of "We don't have to understand God's paths", etc etc etc, but that is not applicable to this. The pain of these kids is real, and they suffer for days, weeks, or months, before dying. Death is God's salvation for them? Then why does he makes them suffer for so long?

Also, my best friend always tells me that God lets us men guide our own lives, so if the path those men chose leads them to the kids suffering, he can do nothing. But I don't agree with this. Men can choose, and that choice can lead them to suffering, but babies and children didn't do anything, as I said before, they're innocent. So why, when you have the power to save them, you don't do it, and watch them suffer?

And note that this is a totally different topic from abortion, so I'd be thankful if noone popped up saying "See? babies with no choice." and so on...

So, how do you explain the paradox?

[db44]

That is if you do in fact beleive God exists. I do, but not everyone does. So to say "we admit" is inclusive of some who may not.

My idea of God is that he/she/it (I usually say "he") created the basics; the laws of science and physics and biology. Nature itself took over from there. He can step in, but not so often on a grand scale... I think of it more like he sees us as a science project; He looks at us like we look at an ant farm. He wants to see what we will do and won't interfere. He let's us create our own problems and then watches us try to solve it or make it worse.

The duplicity of religion, both in some single religions and in the competing views of so many multiple religions, is why I can't accept organized religion or what most of them teach as the true meaning of life or God.

[BrianWilly]

I'm probably not God's most favoritest Buddhist:laugh:, but I'll try to offer an answer.

If there really is a God, I think that it would actually be wrong for him to interfere in the big decisions of our lives. If there really is a God, then certainly he could use his omnipotence to make people do good things, and prevent people from doing bad things. But wouldn't that be interfering with our choices? Wouldn't that be interfering with free will?

I think that if humanity is to someday achieve paradise, than we must prove ourselves worthy of it. What would the meaning of life be if God or some other uberdeity automatically took care of every single problem for us? How are we good people if there was no alternative to being good, if we had no choice but to be good? Would you honestly want to live like that? Maybe we'll make the wrong decisions. Maybe humanity will just keep on spiraling lower and lower into entropy and decay and corruption. But it would be our decision...and if we didn't make the right ones, maybe we don't deserve the right ones.

It's a sad fact of the world that sometimes good, innocent people just die for no reason other than the reason that sometimes good, innocent people just die. But what if God made it so that good, innocent people automatically live to a ripe old age whereas every bad, corrupt person dies horribly in every accident? Once again, he would be interfering with our decisions, through the mere fact that we wouldn't be good for the sake of being a good person...we would be good because we're afraid of dying in a horrible car crash. That's not "good," that's obeying out of fear.

If every child in the world automatically grew up healthy and happy and free from pain or disease, once again God would be interfering...after all, why would anyone care for children if these children get immortality cards until, say, age 12? It's tragic that many children have to suffer, sometimes for a long time, but God can't just automatically solve this problem for is...we have to care for children. We have to make it so they don't suffer. We have to find the cures and stop the diseases and feed the needy and do good and find answers to the problems that, frankly, were pretty much there in the first place because of us. Innocent people will suffer and die in the process...that's a sad truth. But then, if we believe that there's a God, then innocent people will go to heaven. I think that, in some ways, that makes up for earthly suffering.

I hope some of that was able to make sense.

[Ada]

db44, when I said "first, we admit...", I was setting the startpoint for my theory, not assuming everyone admits it. Its like saying "Imagine you're in a desert island...", or something like that, so that you know I'm adopting the position of believing God exists, a position I not necessarily share.

Then, I still don't understand why, for the sake of humanities decisions and their chance to go to heaven or not, so many innocents have to spend their lives in such terrible circumstances. They go to heaven afterwards, but that doesn't erase the fact that God put them through such umbearable pain in the first place. They pay for our mistakes, and that is not what I call "endless goodness".

If we understand the concept of God presented by christianity, it doesn't makes sense that for letting his work (that is, us) show him he did a good job and reach heaven by ourselves, he lets millions of innocent children suffer in horrible ways, and decides not to help them even tho he could, as he is omnipotent. Therefore, he's not endlessly good.

Sorry if I insist in this, but I've found this ideas to be terribly disturbing whenever I've had the chance to listen to priests or christians talk about the endless power and love and benevolency of the Christian God.

[Leezard]

I don't see the paradox for basially what BW just said there. God puts us all here for some reason and we all don't get to know the reason that everyone else is here but none of us are here on accident. I don't know what the birth of that child may have taught someone that was around him/her in their short lifetime. If nothing else hopefully we all become more thankful for our blessings and become good stewards of those blessings in sharing them with people less fortunate than ourselves. There are many people around this world that have the monitary means to make a huge difference in these peoples lives but they choose not to, why aren't they being questioned because in my opinion we all have a social responsibility to do what we can for the people around us.
Life is about choices and someone made the choice to have that child, odds are the parents grew up in that same kind of life so it seems to be a cycle that people have made the choice to perpetuate. For God to step in and stop that would take away free will from someone and that would take away the basic right He has given us. And where would it stop after that? Why not save the adults who are suffering as a result of something that was out of their hands? People that get cancer, MS, AIDS from blood transfusions...how is it fair that they suffer from those things? God never said our lives were going to be good but He did say that He would ALWAYS be there. For all I know He is doing something for those people that suffer, being that I haven't been in that position I don't know what is going on in their lives. All I can do is share what I have and have faith that God knows what He is doing even though I don't always understand it.

[Leezard]

If every child in the world automatically grew up healthy and happy and free from pain or disease, once again God would be interfering...after all, why would anyone care for children if these children get immortality cards until, say, age 12? It's tragic that many children have to suffer, sometimes for a long time, but God can't just automatically solve this problem for is...we have to care for children. We have to make it so they don't suffer. We have to find the cures and stop the diseases and feed the needy and do good and find answers to the problems that, frankly, were pretty much there in the first place because of us. Innocent people will suffer and die in the process...that's a sad truth. But then, if we believe that there's a God, then innocent people will go to heaven. I think that, in some ways, that makes up for earthly suffering.

I think that says it the best. If there wasn't any bad in our world then we would have no choices and we would not have free will. Would it be better if we had no choices to make because our only option would be the good one? And like I said, what about other people that suffer? We all have the choice, there's that free will again, to make a difference in this world and unfortunately not everone makes what seems like the obvious choice...that's just how it goes. For God to make that decision for us by taking away all the bad then there would be no choosing ever. Someone chose to have these children so between them and us we need to choose to care for them and until everyone on this earth chooses to work for the good of everyone else, which I don't see ever happening as we have free will, then there will always be people suffering.

[Ada]

When I talk about children suffering, I talk about Sudan, Somalia, Ruanda, etc... I don't see choices around there. People do not choose to have kids. They are not to blame for anything but being born in a third world country. Still, a God with the power to save them lets them live and die in such horrible suffering, sistematically.

That has nothing to do with the fairness or unfairness of accidents that happens to people, such as illnesses or unfortunate events. We could talk about the Christian's God role in that situations also, but that'd be another discussion, and not what brought me here n the first place.

And for your information, I also question all those who have the chance to do something to help and don't do it, but not in this forum, or in this thread. The fact that you don't see me doing it doesn't mean anything.

[Ada]

Leezard, read my previous post, the one before your first one.

[Leezard]

Yes, I did see your post before and that is what I was speaking to. How would you propose God save them? How would you propose He take their lives without taking their free will?

I guess I'm not understanding what the difference is with a child being born into suffering in a third world country and a child being born with a disease in the US and dying shortly after birth or suffering for a few years before dying because there isn't a cure for their illness. I also don't see the difference in a child suffering and an adult suffering from something they have no control over. Suffering is suffering in my opinion and when someone has no choice over their suffering it seems the same to me...I guess that's what makes us different people with different opinions. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because you see it as God being horrible for not ending their lives and I see it as Him being exactly who He says He is by giving us free will.

[Ada]

The difference I see is simply the total absence of anything positive in their existences that could have, in the eyes of a God or even in mine, given a meaning to their suffering, bring a reason that could help me understand why things are like that.

People suffer and die everywhere, every second, thats clear. What I feel is different is that those thousands of children don't even have names, they don't have chances, they don't get to know, or almost to feel, anything. Life to them is equal to pain. I guess I expected christianity to have an answer to that, but even if it had one, I probably wouldn't understand it.

So when a priest tells me, with their nice clothes, and their golden plates, that God is endlessly good and endlessly powerful, I'm sorry, but I can't buy it. It created me a serious issue when I went to the Vatican a few years ago, and saw all those limousines, the luxury, the treasures, and the huge rocks in their rings...

Personally, I'm a spiritual person, but I can't get myself to believe in God, as it is presented by organized religions. However, I can say I'm honestly happy for all of those who believe in Him/Her/It, or whatever, and it helps them.

[Leezard]

Oh I will totally agree with you that some churches are off their rocker with their opulance and grand displays. That isn't God at all, that's greedy men and women who are abusing their title so to speak. I visited the Vatican recently, as well as a few other churches in Rome, and was pretty discusted with the show and waist I saw there. It is very unfortunate that these people are using the name of God to further thier own pocketbook instead of doing what He has sent us here to do. There seems to be a major difference between the God I belive in and the God they seem to worship. The people that are about getting as much wealth as they can are not doing God's work because God told us to rid ourselves of unnesessary things so that we could focus our attention on Him and His people that we are supposed to help. God does not call us to be wealthy and live in plush homes that we claim are in His name, we are to be examples of Him in simplicity, love and compassion.

[Leezard]

I guess I didn't mean to assign that strictly to the Catholic church, I was just using the example from my latest memory,as I was just in Rome so that's fresh on my mind, of the abuse of money in the church. I agree that many different churches do the same thing and that does create an odd view for people that may not know the basic ideas of Christianity, I think we as people tend to see the flash of the big churches that are there for show and to make money and that can turn many people off. To me it's like people, there are all kinds and it may take a bit of looking to find the ones you'll get along with.

[BrianWilly]

"Without suffering, there would be no compassion."

Felt like the right place for a Mandy Moore quote.

"Tell that to those who suffer."

I understand what Ada is saying...even to allow free will, how is God infinitely good if he doesn't actually help anyone directly, especially the people who need him the most?

I look at it this way: God lets the world go on as it is, and he lets people make their own decisions, but really...it's not as if he didn't provide us with the tools and the potential to help ourselves. If you're Christian, then you believe that God wrote the Bible and gave it to humanity. I have my own personal feelings about how much good the Bible has done to us over the centuries versus how much damage it has done, but I'm not going to deny that right there in those pages are pretty basic and workable guidelines into making this word a better place: Love each other. Help each other. Treat each other well. Don't hurt each other. Forgive each other. Beyond the sanctimonies and the religions and the self-importance of it all, I have no doubt in my mind that no matter how the Bible came into being, it came into being with the purpose of teaching about love and forgiveness, and that love and forgiveness is the heart of the Bible.

If people practiced these things, there wouldn't be war, and there wouldn't be killings, and there wouldn't be torture, and there wouldn't even be "Third World" countries. What would the world be like, if our leaders actually worked together with the intent of world peace instead of against each other with the intent of personal conquer and superiority? Is it God's fault if the answer is right in front of us, that he gave us the solution in simple text, and yet we're too busy fighting each other to utilize it?

[Leezard]

Some of the churches we saw were very amazing, but for me it was somewhat bittersweet because of what they represented. They were sure something else to look at but being that many of them were simply show places that kind of defeats the purpose to me. We were only in Rome and it was quite a place. There's just so much to see there, I loved the history and all of the ruins...it's interesting to think of what those places might have looked like.

[Leezard]

I didn't make it there, that was on my list but with all of the other things we saw I just didn't get there. My favorite was the Palentine Hill.

[*Candy*]

My belief is that people reincarante. And before every lifetime you pick a life situation to be put in. Life is school , in every lifetime you are supposed to learn something new. I think that's where the term "old soul" comes from. If in one lifetime you were rich and you acted like a total snob and belittled people who weren't as well of, in your next lifetime you might choose to be born as a poor kid in Africa.

[*Candy*]

I remember in the 7th grade my spanish teacher was telling us about his trip to a really poor little town in either Mexico or Spain (I think it was Mexico) and he said that the church he saw angered him, and that maybe that was because he wasn't Catholic so he couldn't fully understand it but he said that it was horrible to see people living in little shaks while the church had a 40 foot altar made of gold. That would piss me off too. I llooovvee old beautiful churches and frescos and stuff, but when you have a 40 foot golden altar in a town where all the people live in shaks and can barly survive, that's just distastefull and plain rediculous.

[Ada]

I remember in the 7th grade my spanish teacher was telling us about his trip to a really poor little town in either Mexico or Spain (I think it was Mexico) and he said that the church he saw angered him, and that maybe that was because he wasn't Catholic so he couldn't fully understand it but he said that it was horrible to see people living in little shaks while the church had a 40 foot altar made of gold. That would piss me off too. I llooovvee old beautiful churches and frescos and stuff, but when you have a 40 foot golden altar in a town where all the people live in shaks and can barly survive, that's just distastefull and plain rediculous.

LOL, I'm sorry, I understand that you probably don't remember, and I don't mean this against you, but I find extremely funny that confusion. Mexico is right under the US, Spain is right under France, and the countries are way different. My guess is it was Mexico, I've never seen scenarios like the one you describe over here, but when I went to Nogales (Mexico) I saw some things like that.

Just clearing up :)

BTW, you think now more people in the US know where Spain is, after the war and so on? When I lived there in 1996, half the people I knew thought Spain was under Mexico... And even a couple of them put it right besides Morocco, in Africa...

[*Candy*]

LOL, I'm sorry, I understand that you probably don't remember, and I don't mean this against you, but I find extremely funny that confusion. Mexico is right under the US, Spain is right under France, and the countries are way different. My guess is it was Mexico, I've never seen scenarios like the one you describe over here, but when I went to Nogales (Mexico) I saw some things like that.

Just clearing up :)

BTW, you think now more people in the US know where Spain is, after the war and so on? When I lived there in 1996, half the people I knew thought Spain was under Mexico... And even a couple of them put it right besides Morocco, in Africa...
I'm European....I know where Spain is. It's right be France, divided by the mountains (Pyrenesse I think).
I just wasn't sure where he went because they were both Spanish speaking countries and he had traveled to a lot of places that he told us about. :)

[Goku999]

When I talk about children suffering, I talk about Sudan, Somalia, Ruanda, etc... I don't see choices around there. People do not choose to have kids. They are not to blame for anything but being born in a third world country. Still, a God with the power to save them lets them live and die in such horrible suffering, sistematically.

That has nothing to do with the fairness or unfairness of accidents that happens to people, such as illnesses or unfortunate events. We could talk about the Christian's God role in that situations also, but that'd be another discussion, and not what brought me here n the first place.

And for your information, I also question all those who have the chance to do something to help and don't do it, but not in this forum, or in this thread. The fact that you don't see me doing it doesn't mean anything.

I thing the same!