Fun with little kid's worship songs

[bekahbeans]

Know what's really fun to do?

Sing songs you sang as a little kid in church, out of tune, while your sister tries to read the Bible.

Garunteed to bring good times.

Try it.

[db44]

What about telling them the origins of such songs or other traditional songs, i.e. Ring around the rosie.

[bekahbeans]

I knew that when I was little. My mom told me. Maybe that's why I'm obsessed with all things morbid now...

But that's not exactly a song like "Jesus Loves Me" now is it?

[db44]

(Thankfully) I don't know that one.

[bekahbeans]

Are you serious?! :eek:

Well I suppose that makes sense...I doubt most Jewish children would learn it. I doubt there's one Christian child who doesn't know it though.

[db44]

It's bad enough Christmas gets all the Muppet specials and Chanukah is stuck with the Rugrats.

[bekahbeans]

Hey that was a pretty good special. Don't diss the Rugrats.

You're right though, Christmas does tend to get all the good specials. Even the religion neutral ones like Rudolph and the Grinch. Sorry.

Do you celebrate Christmas, Dave?

[db44]

I celebrate a little bit of everything.

[bekahbeans]

That's what I thought.

[tiger_rascal]

That was obvious, I knew that was coming. You can add the big bang and evolution to that list.

[bekahbeans]

My kids love stories.

[db44]

Well Chad, we both sides in your arguement have faith, just a faith in science is based in existing factual knowledge. Science may not have all the answers, but there's enough to make believable, concise hypothesis of what has been.

And I'd say many scientists are willing to admit they are wrong when enough evidence comes through to change their minds. What would it take for you to admit your religion could be wrong or flawed?

[tiger_rascal]

What I have faith in is perfect. :tongue:

As far as science goes, I believe we are studying Gods creation, and when man studies something so amazing it is only likely that we will mess up while we learn, it happens and that is how we learn further. I simply believe that as of right now the big bang and evolution can be stories like the ones oxymoron mentioned. There is really no real way in proving they are fact. Some may say they are the best ideas, but some people believe that Christianity is the best as well, but are criticized for it.

[bekahbeans]

How many kids do you have? I didn't think you were married.


I'm not.

[db44]

She's part tree, she just sprouts kids.

[db44]

But Chad, evolution occuring as we live and breathe mean nothing? Especially when you consider any time God made a change in things before it was either documented in the Bible or pronounced by God himself. I haven't heard him say anything lately.

[bekahbeans]

for some reason, the word sprout makes me think of fig newtons.

[tiger_rascal]

Perhaps you have not heard Him because you do not believe in Him.

[princessKT]

Perhaps you have not heard Him because you do not believe in Him.

Um.. I've never heard him.

He's got the WHOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEE world, in His hands..

[db44]

I'm not Atheist, I'm Agnostic... Or are you implying that one can only hear a certain version of God.

[tiger_rascal]

The Christian God, yes. If you have not turned your life over to Him and believed in Him, I can not help but believe that you may not be open to other possibilities concerning Christianity.

[db44]

Just as I can't believe that you can't be open to the majority of people and religions in the world?

[tiger_rascal]

Religions yes, I can agree with that, even though Im not cutting down other religions. They can believe as they like. I even think that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God. I believe that God the Creator is connected to lots of religions and I've kept an open mind towards other religions. Im understanding towards them all. However, when someone makes a comment towards Christianity from the outside looking in and I have a concern about it, I will speak my opinion coming from the inside looking out, and I would expect nothing less from other religions towards me if I were to do the same.

[db44]

Is there a reason you live Yahweh out of your should-be Trinity?

[tiger_rascal]

I dont understand your question.

The Trinity that I have faith in is the Father (God the Creator, Yahweh), Son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit.

Whats this have to do with me respecting other religions and leaving them be? I dont pick a religion and make fun of it like some do. Unless of course my raising questions in a humorous form towards science constitutes as making fun of a religion. When I raise questions and have concerns about science, Im only doing as the science community would have me do.

[db44]

I even think that Christians and Muslims believe in the same God.

Nope, no affiliation of Yahweh there. Of course in your rebuttal, you left out Allah. Only room for one other version of the (Judeo-)Christian(-Islamic) diety allowed I guess.

I dont pick a religion and make fun of it like some do.

Me either. I have an issue with every religion, and it's not making fun of them. :p You only worry about yourself however, so you only preceive me taking a singular religion as a target.

You are not doing as the science community would do as scientists would make conclusions based on evidence or research or proof or proven theory. Even when scientific evidence is put before you, you choose to reject it because it goes against God. Where's the scientific process in that?

[tiger_rascal]

Me either. I have an issue with every religion, and it's not making fun of them. :p You only worry about yourself however, so you only preceive me taking a singular religion as a target.

Well I already knew that. :tongue: And you are wrong, again, Im not just worried about myself, I dont like anyone being made fun of, no matter what their religion. I expect Christianity to be mocked and ridiculed. I would guess that Christianity is at least highest on your list for that, from the looks of things.

You are not doing as the science community would do as scientists would make conclusions based on evidence or research or proof or proven theory. Even when scientific evidence is put before you, you choose to reject it because it goes against God. Where's the scientific process in that?

Im questioning, thats what we do in order to learn. I bring up honest questions in the face of "evidence" and I never get an answer back, and if I do its something along the lines of, because the consensus of scientists say so.

[db44]

No, Christianity shares that spot with Judaism. I don't know enough about Islam to go after it, but the three top Westerns definately deserve more scrutiny than the Eastern religions I know. Because Eastern religion seems to focus on the self. Not so with Judaism. When Christians and Jews and Muslims can start creating laws without God in mind, when people stop using God as a reason to treat others like crap, then those religions will be fair and worthy in my eyes.

Never get answers back? Any time you are given an answer here, we get back instead "it's God's work." Look at your post in this thread on evolution. Same trend.

God is an easy excuse for ignorance, for laziness, or for fear. Take your pick. But it always seems to go science is fine until it goes against the Bible. Then it's "don't bother with research, because it's all in the hands of God." When somebody does something wrong, they ask God for forgiveness, not their peers. They tell everyone it's somebody else's fault and ask God for redemption and to right things. Yes, laziness, and pathetic.

[tiger_rascal]

Can you see the double standards now? Why poke fun of Christianity when scientists do the same thing? Its about time both are held to the same standards. And yes, God does say so, His Word is in the Bible. If you believe that, you have faith, but you do not have to believe it. Science is supposed to be different, but as I've stated, its not much different at all. Can you see where it takes faith now to believe in some aspects of science?

[tiger_rascal]

No, Christianity shares that spot with Judaism. I don't know enough about Islam to go after it, but the three top Westerns definately deserve more scrutiny than the Eastern religions I know. Because Eastern religion seems to focus on the self. Not so with Judaism. When Christians and Jews and Muslims can start creating laws without God in mind, when people stop using God as a reason to treat others like crap, then those religions will be fair and worthy in my eyes.

God is an easy excuse for ignorance, for laziness, or for fear. Take your pick. But it always seems to go science is fine until it goes against the Bible. Then it's "don't bother with research, because it's all in the hands of God." When somebody does something wrong, they ask God for forgiveness, not their peers. They tell everyone it's somebody else's fault and ask God for redemption and to right things. Yes, laziness, and pathetic.

How convenient, to blame a religion as a whole instead of the people.

We are commanded by God to ask those we have wronged for forgiveness. That only goes to show that you do not know much about Christianity.

[db44]

Scientists are not poking fun at Christianity (again, you stat just the one, again only concerned for yourself), and many scientists belong to their various religions. Do you know of Galileo? Of his life and death? He could live with both, the chruch was the one to denounce, degrade, isolate and eventually kill him. Yet what he wrote did nothing to harm God. Further more, his work is still considered groundbreaking truth.

Science has room for religion, religion has no room for science. When we are on the verge of progress, not just in Galileo's time but even today, the church cries foul. Columbus wasn't to go to America, as he would prove the Earth round. Stem cell research is bad because it's playing God, just as cloning is. Yet so many people, the ill and the maimed, could live as they once had the abilty to. Bush is proud to send your son to get his arm blown off, but will hold back research that would let him grow it back. Why? Because it's playing God and death.

You can't fathom this all Chad. You think you can but you can't. So long as you are bound to religion, you cannot accept true science because it disproves God and makes him obsolete. You can't fathom any other God but yours. What would happen to you if one day soembody undeniably discovered that the Bible was fake? That Jesus was in fact just an ordinary man, and never performed any miracles? Could you survive?

Why aren't hundreds of fossilized human-esque skeletons not proof of Human evolution? God created Man in his image, nobody else. What are these abnormalities, and why as you go back further in progression (either deeper into the ground or closer to one focal point on the map), is it these bodies adapt with their environments?

Where is it written that God said okay to evolution? How, in your God defense, is it in your right to claim that's God's idea and work?

Yet some scientists try to stay true to their religions. Just as a (in this case only Christian will work) soldier tries to as well? Why is the one who would question God the one who is denounced and the one who would kill for no reason but a superior's (MAN, not deity) is revered? Religion is the one that turns its back on science, not necessarily the other way around. Not necessarily because a doctor working with stem cells isn't doing ANYTHING to denounce God, yet they are considered evil.

How convenient, to blame a religion as a whole instead of the people.


It's more than convenience when that's what's written in the basic fundemental books the religions are based on. How nice for the rules to be writtne in the Bible for everyone. Such a pity not everyone lives life by the Bible.

Or would you dare to give up the Bible? It is what you live by and what you are supposed to live by. If you are going to live so strictly by a book that defines the religion, then it is a group and not an individual issue.

And yet, only when a priest, who is supposed to know the ways of the church better than all, would rather hide his actions and then blame it homosexuals for their "influence" and only, when he is damned NOT by God but by the law will he offer his apology. Or a president who orders kids to their death and thanks them for their bravery, and not say sorry for throwing their lives away for nothing... And the supposively most religious people support these deaths and these "sacrifices" instead of saying killing is wrong. And they feel for the lost American soldiers while not even counting how many innocent Iraqis are dead, and not caring that their misinterpretation of the Bible is the cause of all this death.

It is written in the Bible to be forgiving. Then why is it again that wronged people call for justice and for punishment and reimbersement and cannot forgive without these things.

"I cannot forgive you, but perhaps the Lord will." - Born on the Fourth of July, after Kovak has the decency to admit his friendly fire accident. No malice meant towards his fallen comrade, not even necessarily a fault on Ron's part, yet no forgiveness.

[tiger_rascal]

Scientists are not poking fun at Christianity (again, you stat just the one, again only concerned for yourself), and many scientists belong to their various religions.

Before I read any further, I need to make note that I was talking about you poking fun at Christianity once again. Hence the double standard comment. And, I've known scientists who would poke fun at Christianity. Im not saying they all do, all Im saying is that if Christianity is going to be questioned for its "says so" stance, then so should those aspects of science that does the same.

[tiger_rascal]

Science has room for religion, religion has no room for science.

I've been told the opposite, by scientists.

I believe that science is the study of Gods creation. I think that sums it up.

[tiger_rascal]

It is written in the Bible to be forgiving. Then why is it again that wronged people call for justice and for punishment and reimbersement and cannot forgive without these things.

That is a very good question that you should ask those who actually act that way. Some people are willing to forgive, but some people can not accept it. Why? Perhaps they are not Christian? If I wronged you Dave and I asked for your forgiveness, could you forgive me knowing that you do not believe in that?

[db44]

So go tell Galileo he can't be Christian. Oh wait, despite his belief in the religion, he was told exactly that.

You're drawing of this double standard is moot. We are talking history here. I can't exactly compare what Islam thought of these issues because they weren't the ones calling the shots.

Hey, if you want to be on top and have been, when it comes to an analysis of the past, you have to look at that faction, not a religion that had nothing to do with matters.

[tiger_rascal]

Wow, I've been told that too! Small world!

[tiger_rascal]

I was told that by a scientist, not a Christian. I think thats important to note.

[bekahbeans]

That's because Christians don't tell you to your face.

They just tell everyone else.

[tiger_rascal]

:rolleyes:

Not the ones I know.

[db44]

Where did I ever say I do not believe in forgiveness? I guess it is insinuated because I'm not Christian?

I believe in forgiveness depending on motive. If it were an accident (like Kovik's guning down that soldier), I would be broken up, but I would forgive. I don't hold a grudge against the person who was driving sober when he crashed and killed his passenger (one of my best childhood friends). I don't hold a grudge against the doctor who, because of science at the time, misdiagnosed my father's cancer, when it might've been treatable. Yet if that driver was drunk, no I would not forgive him. He would be a murderer in my eyes, not a tradgic victim of circumstance.

But for so many supposive Christians, motive doesn't matter. And again, it has to be Christian in this arguement, as Judaism teaches the horrid idea of an eye for an eye (motive not-withstanding). If you wrong them, they want retribution. You show me a story of a Christian accepting a horrible accident and I'll show you 20 stories where retribution is demanded... Or how about the parents in Florida who instead of accepting they had a daughter with a medical condition is now brain dead would rather make up sleasy charges against their son-in-law as he calls for the removal of life support?

[tiger_rascal]

Dont be talking about me behind my back Bekah! :tongue:

[db44]

Funny how the science teachers in my school can teach both creationism and evolution, and still be of their various religions, and have no issue with either.

Yet teachers in certain religious areas refuse to teach evolution, even as a theory, and those who do certainly can't teach it without injecting their own views.

For all your claims of me generalizing Chad, it's nice to see that one bad experience with a scientist makes the case for the whole scientific community.

[bekahbeans]

Dont be talking about me behind my back Bekah! :tongue:


too late. bwahahahah! :p

[bekahbeans]

:rolleyes:

Not the ones I know.


How long have you been a Christian, and how long have you attended church?

Yeah, I'd say my experience is more extensive.

[tiger_rascal]

I would be asking you for forgiveness in the eyes of God. Would you be willing to forgive me, so that my Heavenly Father could also forgive me? Or would it be more like you accepting an apology?

[tiger_rascal]

Funny how the science teachers in my school can teach both creationism and evolution, and still be of their various religions, and have no issue with either.

Yet teachers in certain religious areas refuse to teach evolution, even as a theory, and those who do certainly can't teach it without injecting their own views.

For all your claims of me generalizing Chad, it's nice to see that one bad experience with a scientist makes the case for the whole scientific community.

Strike that, reverse it. Apparently it all depends on location.

And I did not say I only had one experience. I even stated that not all scientists are like that.

[tiger_rascal]

How long have you been a Christian, and how long have you attended church?

Yeah, I'd say my experience is more extensive.

Im older than you, so I've had more years to have more experience. :tongue: And, from that one thread of yours, I will pray that you encounter more people who actually act according to Gods Word. Your experience may be more extensive in that you have met nastier people who are supposed to be Christian, but that does not make your experiences inclusive. I do not doubt your experiences, but just as Dave is telling me I can not judge all scientists, I would hope you would not judge all Christians based on a few or even hundreds of Christians that you have had less than satisfactory encounters with.

[bekahbeans]

Age has nothing to do with it, and you're not that much older anyway.

I'm talking about years within the Christian community. And in that arena, I am "older."

I've met a lot of nasty and nice people. But one of the biggest problems among Christians, whether they are nasty or nice, and in the church is gossip. That was my point. You don't have to take my word for it, if you've been in the circles long enough you know it's true.

[tiger_rascal]

Im sorry you have encountered such churches. I would hope that you will not continue to generalize Christian churches based on the churches in your area or the ones you have attended. I know what you are speaking of, but that is not true for all Christians or their churches.

And how long must I be a member of this club before I know what you are speaking of? How long do I have to be in the circles?

[bekahbeans]

Nothing is ever true for everyone. But you can draw basic conclusions based upon what is generally true.

[db44]

It would be me accepting for my own. I believe in an afterlife, not Heaven. You wouldn't need my forgiveness to get in there, as I believe all souls, good and bad "get in." My idea of God is that he is an observer, not an actor. He set all in motion and let it all go on its own, our lives included.

In my belief, it is then that many (all?) the truths about our current plain of existance are answered and our spirits have to continue on, knowing what they did in their lives and having to continue on with all the good and bad they did on their consciouses.

[young again]

Judaism teaches the horrid idea of an eye for an eye (motive not-withstanding).

If I may jump in with a tangential point...

I'm not going to argue that Judaism doesn't teach the idea of an eye for an eye. But to the best of my knowledge this has always* been interpreted to mean that the punishment should be proportional to the crime. At the time the Torah was written, that was the exception among middle eastern societies, not the rule. By the time of the Talmud (roughly 2000 years ago) it was interpreted to refer to monetary compensation, and issues of fault were definitely taken into consideration.

Carry on.

* you may be able to find exceptions, but they will surely be well outside anything remotely mainstream.

[db44]

I knew you'd be here. ;)

Yet when there is a bombing of a Jewish property, it is always paid back in full or more. Sometimes even if a Palestinian attack is actually the retribution.

[tiger_rascal]

Nothing is ever true for everyone. But you can draw basic conclusions based upon what is generally true.

I suppose you and I have come to different conclusions.

[young again]

I knew you'd be here. ;)

Yet when there is a bombing of a Jewish property, it is always paid back in full or more. Sometimes even if a Palestinian attack is actually the retribution.

I'm not even going to go there. I was responding to a common misconception about Jewish religious law as codified in the Torah, and that's ALL I'm going to respond to on this thread.

[bekahbeans]

I suppose you and I have come to different conclusions.


Obviously


Like I said, more experience.

[tiger_rascal]

Like I said, your experience is not all inclusive or special.

I could just as easily say that I have more experience, at least more experience in dealing with Christians who act Christian-like.

Im sorry you have had unpleasant experiences with people who are supposed to be acting Christian-like, but that is no reason to generalize the people who follow the religion.

[bekahbeans]

I never said it was. I said it was more extensive.

You can say whatever you want.

You'd still be wrong.

I really don't want a competition with you. So later.

[princessKT]

Maybe it's just the liquor talking, but I'm really sick of being a Christian. I believe in the trinity, hell, I almost went to seminary, but I've been dealing with so many non-Christian-like Christians lately, that I feel like I'm going to scream.

Maybe I'll just be me, and believe in what I believe. The end.

[tiger_rascal]

Are you sure they are Christian? As I noted in this thread a person who gossips behind a persons back is not acting Christian-like. We can tell a lot about a person by their actions. Im not saying to judge what is in their heart, because only God can do that, but a persons actions speaks louder than words. A person can claim the title Christian, but what good is it if you are not acting Christ-like, or at least trying?

Its clear to me now, why Christianity has such a bad rep., and its not Christs fault and yet His people are faulted for it.

I cant say Im surprised, its to be expected.

[db44]

Again, I must ask what give you the right to deem who is and isn't Christian.

I also ask what makes your opinion more valid than Katie's?

[tiger_rascal]

What is Katie's opinion? She is stating that she is sick of "Christians" not acting like Christians. Im simply responding to that.

Gods Word, in the Bible, gives us all, those who choose to read it, the knowledge of what God asks of us. Im positive I did not read anywhere in the Bible where God wants us to gossip behind others backs.

If we Christians do not hold each other up when we fall, who will? Of course Im going to speak out when a "Christian" is not acting like a Christian. I've done it once and helped a fellow Christian and I would expect someone to do the same to me.

[db44]

Hold each other up? you are the one questioning if they are truly Christian! That's not holding them up, that's trying to hide them under the rug.

So many acting non-Christian-like that it's enough to make her question the religion. That doesn't sound like an opinion?

[tiger_rascal]

Im not questioning what is in their hearts, again only God can do that, Im questioning their actions, and that does not happen often mind you.

I would certainly hope that someone would question my non-Christian actions and cause me to take a step back and analyze my actions and see if they line up with the Word of God.

[tiger_rascal]

I would question the people, not the religion.

[db44]

I question religion when its doctrine tells its members not only how to rule over themselves, but over those not of the faith.

I have pointed out you do tend to judge, does that make you step back and think about what I say? Or is my anti-religion view reason enough to not listen to my thoughts?

[tiger_rascal]

I would not question Christ, I would not question the religion, I would question the persons actions, perhaps they do not know that what they are doing does not line up with Christianity. There is nothing wrong with helping someone.

[db44]

But your religion is based entirely on that silly book! If it's written there, how can you just say it's not what your religion is about?

It is your religion and it tells you how to handle people not of the religion, and tells you they are inferior. You cannot escape that! Unless you are willing to call the Bible wrong, it is your religion.

Yet to be Christian is to know the Bible. If I say something that can be argued by the book, it always is thrown right into my face. So if it is that strong of a tool, if it means that much, then you can't backtrack and only say it is certain parts that you are to live by.

[tiger_rascal]

I have pointed out you do tend to judge, does that make you step back and think about what I say? Or is my anti-religion view reason enough to not listen to my thoughts?

Have you read the Bible? The reason why I ask is because God outlines which kind of judging is bad and which kind is good. I am merely judging, or calling it, as I see it.

And whatever you ask of me, I will make sure it lines up with the Word of God.

[db44]

Have you read the Bible? The reason why I ask is because God outlines which kind of judging is bad and which kind is good. I am merely judging, or calling it, as I see it.

And whatever you ask of me, I will make sure it lines up with the Word of God.


I rest my case! Quote only the Bible parts which you want to. Pretend the other parts are not part of the religion. Selective belief.

And I would point out how elitist it is to say what the book says as the ground rules for all. What does it matter if I've read the Bible when any time I quote it I'm always told I'm taking it out of context or have the wrong interpretation. Then it's "you're not Christian (or Jewish) enough to understand." Yeah, change the rules just so you can be happy with yourself.

[tiger_rascal]

You dont have to listen to me. Im wrong, you all are right.

[db44]

If that's the case, does that mean you are rethinking your religion or your belief in it?

[db44]

What you aren't getting Chad is that my problem is more with the religion as a whole than with the individual. Where you tell me to blame the single person, I can't. For me it is the other way; A person who can be Christian or Jewish or Muslim and - despite what the various scriptures say - can accept that the book is wrong at points is a person who is to be cherrished and respected. One who knows there will be no judgemenet based on religious belief, one who doesn't have to spread the word; one who can let others live as they damn well please. That is what a good religious person should be.

Somebody who doesn't think their chances are better in the afterlife because they said all their "hail Marys." One who can accept Jesus or Moses and yet know that there is a lot of negative b-s in their stories or the stories that are so closely connected. That sort of selective belief is okay.

But when one is so free to quote the Bible as THE way, then that means you have chosen the Bible as your way of life, and that it all must be right (which is a ridiculous notion anyway considering how contradictory the thing is). If you are going to live by the book, you must die by it. You can't go quoting it at one instance and then ignore it the next. To me a good Christian (or Jew... Not as much with Islam as parts I think are much more peaceful. The terrorist types obviously not included) is one who accepts the story of Jesus as such, and not much else. One who realizes "a wretch like me" will be saved no matter what. One who doesn't need to throw the book in others faces, knowing the book goes so far.

You chose to quote the Bible, therefore it shows the Bible is your religion and your life. As that version of religion, yes, I will forever point an accusing finger at it. Those who decide the Bible is just a footnote, that it is to be read but not forced on the entire world, to those people of that version of religion, I will be just as staunch a friend to as I would be a detractor of those bound to the book.

[tiger_rascal]

You are right, do not blame the individual if they are acting according to their religion. My concern is when someone blames the religion when the person who is supposed to be following it acts the opposite of what their religion asks.

I apologize if I have come acrossed as forceful. Forgive me for causing a scene.

[db44]

Accepted. I ask the same.

[tiger_rascal]

Accepted :)

[princessKT]

I never said I was questioning Christ, but only the people. Sometimes it makes me want to disassociate myself with what they claim to be, that is all.