What's So Different?

[Terrence Jamal]

I wanted to post this in the Nsync called it quits topic, but I wanted it to stand alone so everyone could post their thoughts on it. First, who invented the word "Boy Band." What characteristics does a band have to have (other than being all male) to earn this title? I ask b/c in the other post I believe it was OlderNsyncFan, and another poster than said that Chris was almost 30, and he's too old to be in a boy band, and someone else said that era in music is over. My question is, how, and when did Nsync get pigeonholed into being nothing more than a frivolous boy band? When they first started out, they were all young so I can accept that point, but now all the men are grown adults, why would they still be considered a boy band? At what point in time will they graduate into being called a "man band," or just a musical group comprised of five very talented men?

I ask this b/c other than the Jackson 5, New Edition really kicked off the idea of putting 5 guys together into a group, and give them a pop sound. From that ideation, groups like Nsync, BSB, 9g Degrees etc were formed. So in my opinion, New Edition is one of the original boy bands. Fast forward a couple generations, P. Diddy has signed New Edition to Bad Boy records, and they are about to release their new studio album very shortly. Their new single is burning up the radio in some areas. The entire time they were out promoting their album, no one once referred to them as a "boy band." You talk about Chris being about 30, well dang, Johnny Gill is about 40.

Didn't want to have to cross the color line, but why is it that when black music groups come about (New Edition, Jagged Edge, 112, Prophet Jones, etc) they are not referred to as "boy bands." But as soon as white groups such as Nsync or another groups come about with almost identical characteristics of the black sub group, they are automatically labeled as boy bands, and instantly seen as less than to their black counterparts?

If Nsync ever got back together (rolling my eyes at Justin :) ) why do they still have to be stigmatized as a mere boy band? That term alone would deter me from wanting to come back together. If I was in a group, that term would be offensive to me. To me is says that in spite of all I have done and accomplished in this group, it does not mean diddly squat to some people b/c my group is nothing more than a forgettable boy band.

(Things that make you go hmmm...)

[princessKAT]

I hope they're giving you a PhD in this graduate program you're finishing, that was profound TJ :)

[Terrence Jamal]

Putting on my square proffesor bifocals and smiling like red Kool-Aid... :redcool:

[Just_Me_Here]

Wow! One of the best posts I've ever read on LD.

Things that make you go hmmmmm..... indeed.

How I see it:

A "boyband" is -

- Created SPECIFICALLY to make money off of young impressionable girls who have disposable income. (See Lou Perlman for instruction manual)

- Dances (a little or a lot)

- Has had flashy, sequined, MATCHING outfits in their past or present.

- Flashy, BIG, spectacle of a live show. It's more about what you **see** and not what you **hear**.

- Lip-syncing in concert.

and most important....

- Marketing (have you been a doll, a fruitsnack or a lipgloss?)

Now, your question about going from a "boyband" to a "manband"? I don't know if that's truly possible. I think any artist in any aspect of showbusiness who's seen success at a younger age, is facing a tough time trying to get the public to grow-up with them. Some people DO succeed (Jodi Foster for example. From "Freaky Friday" to Oscar winner) and then there's Michael Jackson as well. Although he may have won the battle (transended from kid start to adult star) but lost the war (essentially lost his sanity/mind)

Do I think Chris is too old for what Nsync's done in the past? Yes. However, if any group had what it takes to go from "boyband" to "vocal group" I think Nsync did. They had the vocal talent. They could have gone on to become more like "Take 6" if they really wanted.

If I could give them 1 piece of advice on what to do as a group it would be this:

Record one song together as a group. Acapella. (Nothing at all to be ashamed of with an acapella song) Put it on a Greatest Hits cd. I honestly don't see anything about an acapella song that would embarass Justin. Then dissappear for say 4 years or so. Come back as a serious vocal group (forget the big, flashy stuff - go for stripped down/old-fashioned/concentrate-on-the-vocals-sound)

They could have a whole new career.

[misty twilight]

I think in some respects, as an *NSYNC fan, I have always been a little insulted by the title "boyband." Yes, I can see where people would want to fit them into a stereotypical slot in the world of pop music, but that does not make it correct.

- Created SPECIFICALLY to make money off of young impressionable girls who have disposable income. (See Lou Perlman for instruction manual)

- Dances (a little or a lot)

- Has had flashy, sequined, MATCHING outfits in their past or present.

- Flashy, BIG, spectacle of a live show. It's more about what you **see** and not what you **hear**.

- Lip-syncing in concert.

and most important....

- Marketing (have you been a doll, a fruitsnack or a lipgloss?)


If you are using this specific criteria for the formula of a boyband, I most definitely have to disagree.

1. *NSYNC was not "created" for any purpose. *NSYNC formed themselves and proposed what they could do to Lou Perlman. They were talented musicians who had an opportunity and took it. But they were not created.

2. Why does dancing make them a boyband? I can think of quite a few female groups that dance as well. P-Diddy and his groupies all dance in their shows. They aren't boybands...

3. Flashy, sequined, matching outfits have been around since the beginning of music. The Temptations, the Beattles, the Bee-Gees...they all wore some sort of flashy matching outfits, are they boybands?

4. *NSYNC is one of the few bands who don't lip-sync in concert and you can tell by how often they miss a beat or slip off key on ocassion. I am not saying they don't have background vocals on, but they do not lip sync.

5. Every band in the history of bands has been marketed to some extent or another. To this day I still have KISS memorabilia...and KISS is most definitely not defined as a boyband...


Now to answer your original question, TJ, I am not sure. These have been age-old questions that we have asked time and time again. And yet, I think it comes down to, *NSYNC was unfairly put into a stereotype that did not necessarily fit and have not been able to break out of it.

By going solo, JC and Justin proved they are not just part of a mold, but even that was not good enough. Justin's success has mostly been derived from the support of other R&B artists, would he have been as successful without that support? I don't think so. Call me cynical. Maybe I am.

I do believe the guys have an excellent chance at coming back as a group and being successful. Look at the Bee-Gees, they did it, and they were only half as talented. New Edition is doing it, and they were more of a contrived group than *NSYNC...no disrespect to New Edition here, just facts. So given the right timing and the right material, I believe our 'boys' could come back and knock us off our feet.

And I, for one, will be here the day it happens :)

[Terrence Jamal]

New Edition is doing it, and they were more of a contrived group than *NSYNC...no disrespect to New Edition here, just facts. So given the right timing and the right material, I believe our 'boys' could come back and knock us off our feet.

I won't say that New Edition was manufactured or not b/c I don't know their history like that, but I really think they could have been really successful these past few years. Their Home Again album was off the hook. People STILL play Hit Me Off in the club like it just came out last week. However the only thing that derailed them was that Bobby Brown felt it necessary to show his whole ass and act a fool to mess up the tour. His "bipolar" kicked in and spread the negative energy to the other members. They made a right move to go forward without him. This can be somewhat related to what may happened to Nsync. NE was a solid group, and Bobby was the "lead" for a number of the songs. He felt like he outgrew the group, and went solo. They simply replaced him with Johnny Gill and kept on rolling. Then years later Bobby came back to the group as a sixth member along with the newly added Johnny...

[misty twilight]

All true. I was/am a huge fan of New Edition. I thought they had a great sound then and like the way they were able to grow into a new sound as they got older. Have to say though, was never really a fan of Bobby Brown. The man was too asinine for my liking. Kind of reminds me of another "boyband" singer...

[Terrence Jamal]

Oh, Bobby was cool with me until he raised his filthy, grimy, jailbird hand to strike the beautiful, delicate face of my girl Whitney. Since then... Please...

[Just_Me_Here]

1. *NSYNC was not "created" for any purpose. *NSYNC formed themselves and proposed what they could do to Lou Perlman. They were talented musicians who had an opportunity and took it. But they were not created.

I know the Nsync history. They essentially (with Chris as the founder) put themselves together and presented Lou with the "package" as opposed to BSB which went through an audition process. However, I don't think Lou put as much money and time as he did into Nsync because he thought they were nice talented guys and that's it. He (bottom line) saw another opportunity to make alot of money. Even better that he did'nt have to go through auditions. Aside from the "how they got together" question, there's no difference between Nsync and BSB. Both were put out there to MAKE MONEY OFF OF YOUNG GIRLS. The same forumla was followed for both. The same formula was followed for O-Town with the addition of a tv show.

The rest of you points could be argued back and forth with noone changing their mind. I suppose they are subjective.......


Justin's success has mostly been derived from the support of other R&B artists, would he have been as successful without that support? I don't think so. Call me cynical. Maybe I am.

I think Justin's success has mostly been derived from all the media/hype Jive bought for him. Jive purchased Justin's success and then handed it to him.

[Terrence Jamal]

I think Justin's success has mostly been derived from all the media/hype Jive bought for him. Jive purchased Justin's success and then handed it to him.

I also think Justin was able to capitolize on his circumstances. His breakup with Britney played a BIG part in his album. Had they not broken up I don't think his album would have done as well. He kept playing into the hype by saying nothing on the album has anything to do with Britney, then he would turn around and say if you want to know what happened between Britney and I, buy the album. Just like he flipped flopped on Janet. One minute we're gonna give them something to talk about, next minute he's full of shock and awe... Ok... But that's another story... So adding his success and popularity with Nsync, and breaking up with Britney his album went through the roof. Please don't think Like I Love You was his hit maker. I know sooooo many people who hated the song, and said it sounded like an old Sheila E. cut. (myself included but I made myself like it b/c I wanted to support Justin)

[Just_Me_Here]

I also think Justin was able to capitolize on his circumstances. His breakup with Britney played a BIG part in his album. Had they not broken up I don't think his album would have done as well. He kept playing into the hype by saying nothing on the album has anything to do with Britney, then he would turn around and say if you want to know what happened between Britney and I, buy the album.

Yup, I'll agree with that. The bottom line was - hype.

Just like he flipped flopped on Janet. One minute we're gonna give them something to talk about, next minute he's full of shock and awe... Ok... But that's another story...

Justin showed his true colors with the superbowl incident. All the tough-guy posturing was just that......posturing.

[lost_n_justin's_smile]

Yup, I'll agree with that. The bottom line was - hype.



Justin showed his true colors with the superbowl incident. All the tough-guy posturing was just that......posturing.

And to add to that(please excuse me I'm venting here): I was practically booing him offstage at the Grammy's when he was doing his so-called "apology". C'mon we all know it was planned, just admit it.

[grace701]

Uh this is a <i>very</i> interesting topic. I have to agree with <b>Just_Me_Here</b> in what makes up a boyband. People believe that those are what make up *NSYNC, when we all know damn well it doesn't.

If *NSYNC were to come back, I don't think they'd be viewed as a boyband anymore because of the success they had. When they released Celebrity, I believe they were taken a bit more seriously, granted it was all b/c of "Justin's" 'Gone'. Justin's success has pushed *NSYNC into a different direction. (I can't believe I just said that, but it's true.) I know a lot of people who also liked 'Girlfriend' which was a group song, not just a Justin song.

I honestly dont know why black boybands don't get a "bad rap" as opposed to white boybands.

[pinky]

All good points, except for the comment about the BeeGees being only half as talented.......the Gibb brothers are EXTREMELY talented as singers and songwriters, and have been successful (at the top of the heap kind of successful) three distince times, doing three distinct types of music. They remain highly respected after 35+ years.


Time will tell what people in the year 2034 feel about *NSYNC.

[misty twilight]

My apologies, Pinky, I am not downplaying the Bee-Gee's. I happen to be a big fan of the Brothers' Gibb and own most of their material. My comment on being half as talented was a reference to the size of the group, not the actual talent. I have a very bad habit of comparing *NSYNC to the BeeGee's, because of the similarities that run between the vocal styles and the growth they have experienced.

[pinky]

No problem! I didn't know you were a BeeGees fan too.

No one in *NSYNC EVER looked as good as Barry did in the 70's! :blueeek:

[misty twilight]

That's only because they don't wear the jeans he did ;)

[pinky]

Actually, for me it was the hair.

But the white pants on the tour in '79 were pretty good too.

[JRT's#1Buckeyes]

I also think Justin was able to capitolize on his circumstances. His breakup with Britney played a BIG part in his album. Had they not broken up I don't think his album would have done as well. He kept playing into the hype by saying nothing on the album has anything to do with Britney, then he would turn around and say if you want to know what happened between Britney and I, buy the album. Just like he flipped flopped on Janet. One minute we're gonna give them something to talk about, next minute he's full of shock and awe... Ok... But that's another story... So adding his success and popularity with Nsync, and breaking up with Britney his album went through the roof. Please don't think Like I Love You was his hit maker. I know sooooo many people who hated the song, and said it sounded like an old Sheila E. cut. (myself included but I made myself like it b/c I wanted to support Justin)


Here we go again with the same tired arguments. :noway:
First of all...are you trying to say that Justin won his grammys based on hype? Um...wrong answer...try again. I will say that his breakup gave him alot of media attention initially, but after that, it was his talent that brought in fans. I don't think he sold out his concerts with Christina because of people wanting to see if he would say something about Britney. They came to see him because he put on an awesome show...and his club shows are amazing. :)
And what is it with you and this Janet thing? No offense, but if I remember correctly, didn't they both say it was an accident? And have you personally spoken to her and she said that Justin sold her out? I didn't think so. Perhaps your girl Janet had it planned all along and told Justin that she had a bra on underneath and he believed her. Then he pulls...and voila...out it pops. Oops! Maybe it was he who didn't sell her out, and yeah...I'm sure he was shocked. Do you really think that he would stoop to that level when his whole family was watching? I think not...now Janet, gee..let me think. Oh yeah..she has posed topless before (Rolling Stone, album cover), so yeah..I'm thinking she planned it because she needed the promo for the new album. :wink:
And finally...just because you and your friends didn't like "Like I Love You", quite a few people did...so, so much for that argument.
Again..I don't know you, so no offense is meant. But I get so tired of the same old arguments that have been around forever. Whether you like Justin or not, doesn't really concern me. Because I've met him several times and he's always been extremely sweet to me, I will always adore him. And since his defenders seem to be few anymore..I have no problem debating issues in his defense. :tongue:

[Just_Me_Here]

Here we go again with the same tired arguments. :noway:
First of all...are you trying to say that Justin won his grammys based on hype? Um...wrong answer...try again. I will say that his breakup gave him alot of media attention initially, but after that, it was his talent that brought in fans. I don't think he sold out his concerts with Christina because of people wanting to see if he would say something about Britney. They came to see him because he put on an awesome show...and his club shows are amazing. :)


Two words for you: Pet Rock

Do you remember the "Pet Rock"? It was HUGE in the 1970's. It was a rock in a cute little package. That's it. They sold MILLIONS! There was TONS of hype. TONS of media. IT WAS A FREAKIN' ROCK!!!!! People HAD to have it. Someone got very rich selling ROCKS to the American public.

My point? The public will think it's cool and buy it if it's shoved down their throat. The public buys into hype. Justin's solo career was hype.

[pinky]

Even I think that's a bit harsh, and I've never been a Justin fan.

I can't deny Justin's talent. He can sing, he can dance, and he does both with style. Do I think Justified is Grammy material? Not really. But I do think that people, both the buying public outside of *NSYNC's fans, and the critics, were completely surprised by how good it was, and that got Justin some respect as an artist that he'd never had before.

As for the sold out concerts, I don't think he would have come close to selling out most of the venues he played without Christina. Smaller venues, no problem, but I don't think that was a chance he wanted to take, especially after Nick Carter took so much heat for his poor ticket sales. Justin is nothing if not smart about how to protect his image. Half-empty venues would have hurt his career permanently. And, as a side note, I went to that concert expecting to take a long bathroom break during Christina's set. I even said that here. But, in reality, I stayed for her set, and enjoyed it far more than Justin's!

[Just_Me_Here]

Even I think that's a bit harsh, and I've never been a Justin fan.


I was'nt trying to be harsh. Just pointing out that the public **will** and **can** be manipulated into thinking something is cool and they have to have it and it's the greatest thing ever. The pet rock was a shining example in how to sell to the public ANYTHING. Enough hype and you can make even ROCKS look great!


I can't deny Justin's talent. He can sing, he can dance, and he does both with style. Do I think Justified is Grammy material? Not really. But I do think that people, both the buying public outside of *NSYNC's fans, and the critics, were completely surprised by how good it was, and that got Justin some respect as an artist that he'd never had before.

I can't sit here and say he can't sing and he can't dance. Because yes, he can. Is he the greatest thing to come along since sliced bread? No. Not even close. Yes, he has talent. But I think that the talent he had was surrounded by:

-People who had even more talent than him. (i.e. songwriters, producers, directors, etc...)

- A whole lot of hype. Which blinded the public into thinking that it was all Justin when the facts were that other people wrote and produced the stuff **for** him.

::shrugs:: JMO. I'm SURE there's arguments against what I think. I'm SURE there's people who disagree with me. But, that's how I see it.

As for the sold out concerts, I don't think he would have come close to selling out most of the venues he played without Christina. Smaller venues, no problem, but I don't think that was a chance he wanted to take, especially after Nick Carter took so much heat for his poor ticket sales. Justin is nothing if not smart about how to protect his image. Half-empty venues would have hurt his career permanently.

That I totally agree with. Touring together was a smart business move. It made him look very successful that he could tour arena's as a solo act.

[JRT's#1Buckeyes]

Two words for you: Pet Rock

Do you remember the "Pet Rock"? It was HUGE in the 1970's. It was a rock in a cute little package. That's it. They sold MILLIONS! There was TONS of hype. TONS of media. IT WAS A FREAKIN' ROCK!!!!! People HAD to have it. Someone got very rich selling ROCKS to the American public.

My point? The public will think it's cool and buy it if it's shoved down their throat. The public buys into hype. Justin's solo career was hype.


Hmmm....bitter much?
Anyways....I've never heard of a pet rock. Apparently I must not be old enough to know about that. :roll:
But...regardless...the boy has talent whether you want to give him credit or not. Justin co-wrote every single song on his album. And rarely do you find an artist that has not had an extra hand in either writing, arranging, or producing every song they have. I think every successful artist surrounds themselves with great people..thats just the way it is. :wink:

[Terrence Jamal]

Here we go again with the same tired arguments. :noway:
First of all...are you trying to say that Justin won his grammys based on hype? Um...wrong answer...try again. I will say that his breakup gave him alot of media attention initially, but after that, it was his talent that brought in fans. I don't think he sold out his concerts with Christina because of people wanting to see if he would say something about Britney. They came to see him because he put on an awesome show...and his club shows are amazing. :)
And what is it with you and this Janet thing? No offense, but if I remember correctly, didn't they both say it was an accident? And have you personally spoken to her and she said that Justin sold her out? I didn't think so. Perhaps your girl Janet had it planned all along and told Justin that she had a bra on underneath and he believed her. Then he pulls...and voila...out it pops. Oops! Maybe it was he who didn't sell her out, and yeah...I'm sure he was shocked. Do you really think that he would stoop to that level when his whole family was watching? I think not...now Janet, gee..let me think. Oh yeah..she has posed topless before (Rolling Stone, album cover), so yeah..I'm thinking she planned it because she needed the promo for the new album. :wink:
And finally...just because you and your friends didn't like "Like I Love You", quite a few people did...so, so much for that argument.
Again..I don't know you, so no offense is meant. But I get so tired of the same old arguments that have been around forever. Whether you like Justin or not, doesn't really concern me. Because I've met him several times and he's always been extremely sweet to me, I will always adore him. And since his defenders seem to be few anymore..I have no problem debating issues in his defense. :tongue:

Do I think Justin won a Grammy on hype value alone? No. But I think it was that same hype that got him the initial attention he needed to have people looking at him in that aspect. Had it not been for Nsync, had it not been for Gone, and the Nelly remix of Girlfriend, had it not been for Britney, no I really do not think Justified would have been as big as it was. As far as the concerts I agree with Pinky, I don't think Justin would have had the same response to the show without Christina. And I don't think he would have had the same support if it were not for the throng of screaming females clamouring to see him. I went to a concert I saw the hoochies in the audience half naked like they had a provate date with him after the show... Groupies... I take nothing, away from his talent. Nothing at all. I loved his album, and loved everything he put his foot in the mix to do. But had the past not lined up accordingly to bring him to the spot he was at to release a solo album I don't think it would have been as big. In today's music world, talent means nothing. If superstar singers like Whitney Houston, and Mariah Carey can release WONDERFUL albums and see dismal total sales, and then non singing acts like Ashanti come along and sell the roof out of a song, that shows that something is wrong. I have a lot of CD's where the singer has GREAT talent, but no one realizes it b/c they don't buy the CD. When Justin came out he already had millions of Nsync fans pulling for him, buying the album, requesting the songs on the radio etc. That was a huge help for him, and something he would not have had, had it not been for Nsync.

As far as Janet, would Janet even say in the public that he sold her out? No. She would not put him on blast like that. Accident or no accident, she went through and is still going the fire while Justin came out like his didn't stink. First "we'll give them something to talk about," then "it was an accident," then he was shocked and appauled that she would involve him in such a lewd and tadry act. Funny he had no problem with it when he was humping her backside every chance he got... I didn't see the big deal, but I can understand why people were upset. Which is why, in my opinion, both of them should have been made to go through the same fire, since both of them were equal in the stunt. Do I think Justin would do the same stunt in font of his family? I don't know. Like you asked me, did Justin call you up and say I would not do that in front of my family and friends? Think not. Justin was shady from the get go. If he was so shocked, why did it take him a few days to realize he was shocked? Why didn't he say that right after the event? Hmmm.... Meanwhile if you want to bring Janet into it, Janet did not pose topless for Rolling Stone, Janet posed with her husband's hands over her breasts. Why is that wrong, when Justin is allowed to pose with his pants so far down the crack of his crotch that they had to airbrush his pubic hair out of the picture? But that's ok tho right? As far as her needed promo for her album... I don't see how having a breast pop out at the Superbowl was going to help sell albums. Was the breast gonna be in a picture in the booklet? Was the breast singing backup on a few song? Did the breast co-produce the album?

Another point, please make it a point to fully read a person's post before you jump to post. I did not say everyone in America disliked LILY. I said people that I knew didn't like it. Obviously I do not know everyone in this world, so I'm not speaking for everyone. I'm speaking for me. So whatever arugment you're trying to conjure up is null and void. I will say that I was just like you, and was constantly defending Justin against people saying he was trying to act/sing black, he was biting off of Michael Jackson, he's taking black music away from "us," saying Nsync could not sing, etc. So please take a few steps down from the high horse you're riding b/c there is not much difference between you, me, and the remaining population here on this particular LD forum. I'll still defend him on certain points, however on these, we just have to agree to disagree, shake hands, sing Cry Me A River and keep on rolling… Tomorrow you’re still gonna be here feeling how you feel, and tomorrow I’m gonna still be here felling how I feel… :cool: