Continuation from next door.....

[BruceNut]

Orthy,
Substitute "Islam" with "Judaism" or "Christianity" or "Blacks" after every JDL or KKK or gang attack, and your post might get you an LD vacation.

More accurately, hate strikes again, not Islam. May God have mercy on the injured and lost lives.

Tarik,
Please help me to understand why at some point I shouldnt accept Orthys generalization?
I agree that its hate striking, but why are most of the people doing these horrific acts turning out to be Islamic? At some point someones going to say enough is enough and that door at the border will be closed. <----knee jerk reaction I know. And hopefully it will never happen because then the terrorists win.

[Princemyshkin]

Mickey,
It's not only Islamics who are extremists. I don't hold all Irish Catholics responsible for the IRA's bombings anymore than all Irish Protestants are responsible for their religions actions. All people who are against abortions don't go around blowing up clinics etc. All Italian Communists weren't members of the Red Brigade. Extremists are extremists, they are not nice people but we can't paint everyone with the same brush otherwise this ain't the US of A. Just one man's opinion :scratch: :scratch:

[HeldUp]

Mickey

That's a good reply by Princemyshkin. Give me a couple of minutes to put something together for you.

[pinky]

Mickey, I can't cite figures on education levels in predominantly Islamic countries, but my guess is that many people are under-educated, and therefore more susceptible to manipulated by extremists like bin Laden. That would be one factor that might contribute to the appearance that terrorism is a largely Muslim tactic.

However, as mentioned already, there ARE others who use terrorist tactics and who have no connection to Islam. Anyone who is disconnected from power, economically disadvantaged, and who has access to knowledge of explosives (basically, anyone with a library or internet connection) has the potential to cause problems. Witness McVeigh, Colombian drug lords, the IRA, the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, and countless others.

[BruceNut]

. Witness McVeigh, Colombian drug lords, the IRA, the Hutus and Tutsis in Rwanda, and countless others.

I guess my point is, none of the comparisons you cite effect your day to day life like Islamic extremists have and do.

If one breed of dog bites you, you say ok. If the same breed continues to bite you over and over then you need to do something.
(please excuse the poor anology.Its the only one I could think of but I think you get my point)

[pinky]

Maybe not YOUR life directly; however, the international effort to combat all of these combined does affect us economically, and sometimes militarily.

[dukestreetking]

The probelm is that Islamic leaders never come out and condemn terrorism or terrorist attacks in any kind of timely, forceful or united nature. This is somehting I've never understood.

DSK

[pinky]

They're not stupid. They don't want to become targets, because that would undermine their grip on power. They're much safer as long as we can be painted as the villains.

[Richard Tafoya]

Here's a list of links to Muslim reactions to 9/11.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

[VermontNJGirl]

I can completely understand why the term "Islam strikes again" can be a true generalization of the constant fear that the world lives under today. There can be no doubt that the acts of Islamic extremists are the most prominent force of terror in the world today: unless of course you make the world smaller and look specifically at certain areas like Rwanda, etc.

To invoke past history, like the Crusades, does nothing to lessen the truth: Islamic extremism is the root of most of the worst acts of terrorism over the past decade.

Perhaps the statement should have been "Islamic extremism strikes again". We all know that the majority of Muslims on this earth are peaceful people just trying to live thier lives. And we know that the roots of hatred that the extremists feed on are not found in the Koran, which in fact teaches that tolerance of other religions is of upmost importance. But we cannot avoid the truth just to be politically correct. If this is an act of Muslim extremists, we cannot try to cover it up and just call it "Hate" or something else to avoid hurting feelings.

Frankly, my first thought when I saw the news was that it was done by the French because they are so pissed about losing the 2012 Olympics to London!!!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

My heart goes out to all those affected by these terrible events in London.

Deb

[BruceNut]

Deb........Its the first thing my nurse said to me when she came in this morning re: the French :p

They're not stupid. They don't want to become targets, because that would undermine their grip on power.


They`re afraid of being killed themselves.Plain and simple. I want to see all those Islamic leaders over there, in the countries where estremism is taught to stand up right away and say whats being done is wrong. And say it day in and day out. Not just once. Heck say it on Al jesera (sp). I bet the TV channel wouldnt even telecast it.

[TIES2]

We all know that the majority of Muslims on this earth are peaceful people just trying to live thier lives. And we know that the roots of hatred that the extremists feed on are not found in the Koran, which in fact teaches that tolerance of other religions is of upmost importance. But we cannot avoid the truth just to be politically correct. If this is an act of Muslim extremists, we cannot try to cover it up and just call it "Hate" or something else to avoid hurting feelings.


Deb

Deb, your posts are often the voice of reason...so it's not with what you say or post that I take exception to (in other words, nothing personal). But I do not understand how "we all know that the majority of Muslims are peace loving people just trying to live their lives"...except that the media is constantly telling us this is true. Personally, I do not know any Muslims. I have never read the Koran. I have never attended a service at a Mosque. How then, I ask you, can I unequivocally say that the majority of Muslims are peace loving?

If we took as truth everything we read in the media, then, conversely, "we would all know that Christian fundamentalists are hate-mongers bent on destroying this country." Fortunately most of us have a bit more knowledge on this topic and are merely amused at the audacity of the press to pass fiction as fact, though, there are countless others who are all too happy to lap up "all the news that's fit to print" as truth. Need proof? Just look at some past posts!

As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out with regard to the Muslim psyche... I would like to believe that most Muslims are peace loving, however, I do not see a whole lot of confirmation on this...remember, actions speak louder than words...

I wish someone would please explain to me why the world's peace-loving Muslims have not banded together and told the hatred-filled few to take a seat...[see my other post on the NYT editorial by Thomas Friedman].


As Americans (or Western Europeans) we cannot grasp why in the world someone would want to strap on explosives and walk into a crowded market place. If your son or daughter committed such a heinous act, you would be filled with shame. Yet, producing a human bomb appears to be a source of pride within many Islamic communities...perhaps even among those we have labeled as peace loving individuals.

It's a value's divide. Judeo-Christian values versus Islamic values. The two are different. To think otherwise is foolhardy, and, perhaps dangerous. And I'm not talking about religion here, either. Our overall values, our sense of right from wrong, regardless of when, if ever, you have gone to church is well steeped in a Judeo-Christian worldview. Just like the overall values of Muslims is steeped in an Islamic worldview.

In the end, that's what will kick our a$$. We will continue to look at the problem through a Judeo-Christain worldview values lens...when what we need to do is look at the problem throuh an Islamic worldview values lens.

What is it that they say -- seek first to understand...

[mhafinancial]

Mickey,
It's not only Islamics who are extremists. I don't hold all Irish Catholics responsible for the IRA's bombings anymore than all Irish Protestants are responsible for their religions actions. All people who are against abortions don't go around blowing up clinics etc. All Italian Communists weren't members of the Red Brigade. Extremists are extremists, they are not nice people but we can't paint everyone with the same brush otherwise this ain't the US of A. Just one man's opinion :scratch: :scratch:
And not all Christians are bombing abortion clinics and killing abortion dcotors.

[Flory Days]

Deb, your posts are often the voice of reason...so it's not with what you say or post that I take exception to (in other words, nothing personal). But I do not understand how "we all know that the majority of Muslims are peace loving people just trying to live their lives"...except that the media is constantly telling us this is true. Personally, I do not know any Muslims. I have never read the Koran. I have never attended a service at a Mosque. How then, I ask you, can I unequivocally say that the majority of Muslims are peace loving?

If we took as truth everything we read in the media, then, conversely, "we would all know that Christian fundamentalists are hate-mongers bent on destroying this country." Fortunately most of us have a bit more knowledge on this topic and are merely amused at the audacity of the press to pass fiction as fact, though, there are countless others who are all too happy to lap up "all the news that's fit to print" as truth. Need proof? Just look at some past posts!

As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out with regard to the Muslim psyche... I would like to believe that most Muslims are peace loving, however, I do not see a whole lot of confirmation on this...remember, actions speak louder than words...

I wish someone would please explain to me why the world's peace-loving Muslims have not banded together and told the hatred-filled few to take a seat...[see my other post on the NYT editorial by Thomas Friedman].


As Americans (or Western Europeans) we cannot grasp why in the world someone would want to strap on explosives and walk into a crowded market place. If your son or daughter committed such a heinous act, you would be filled with shame. Yet, producing a human bomb appears to be a source of pride within many Islamic communities...perhaps even among those we have labeled as peace loving individuals.

It's a value's divide. Judeo-Christian values versus Islamic values. The two are different. To think otherwise is foolhardy, and, perhaps dangerous. And I'm not talking about religion here, either. Our overall values, our sense of right from wrong, regardless of when, if ever, you have gone to church is well steeped in a Judeo-Christian worldview. Just like the overall values of Muslims is steeped in an Islamic worldview.

In the end, that's what will kick our a$$. We will continue to look at the problem through a Judeo-Christain worldview values lens...when what we need to do is look at the problem throuh an Islamic worldview values lens.

What is it that they say -- seek first to understand...This is extremely scary. If Deb can't speak sensibly to you it is pointless for me to try.

[TIES2]

This is extremely scary. If Deb can't speak sensibly to you it is pointless for me to try.

Deb is always sensible...she and the rest of the world have just bought into a notion that the media has been feeding us since 9/11...but let me ask you, how do you know it's true? Bruce cautions us about blind faith in our leaders, I'd like to extend that caution to blind faith in what you read. I really have no first-hand knowledge of this religion or of anyone who practices it. I can pick up a zillion books -- half support Islam, half are against it -- who's telling the truth??? And what's wrong with questioning prevailing attitudes?

I stated that I'd like to believe it, but what I've seen so far is vastly different than what I hear!

I do not hear the collective roar among the muslim community denouncing these acts, do you????

[PalestinianPride]

Deb is always sensible...she and the rest of the world have just bought into a notion that the media has been feeding us since 9/11...but let me ask you, how do you know it's true? Bruce cautions us about blind faith in our leaders, I'd like to extend that caution to blind faith in what you read. I really have no first-hand knowledge of this religion or of anyone who practices it. I can pick up a zillion books -- half support Islam, half are against it -- who's telling the truth??? And what's wrong with questioning prevailing attitudes?

I stated that I'd like to believe it, but what I've seen so far is vastly different than what I hear!

I do not hear the collective roar among the muslim community denouncing these acts, do you????

There have been condemnations of these terror acts from the muslim community in which except they do not make headline news in the mainstream media.

Second of all, like I mentioned in the other thread, the majority of the muslim world does not even believe that Al-Qaeda exists.

To them, they are just as confused and bewildered by all this as you are.

[Flory Days]

Deb, your posts are often the voice of reason...so it's not with what you say or post that I take exception to (in other words, nothing personal). But I do not understand how "we all know that the majority of Muslims are peace loving people just trying to live their lives"...except that the media is constantly telling us this is true. Personally, I do not know any Muslims. I have never read the Koran. I have never attended a service at a Mosque. How then, I ask you, can I unequivocally say that the majority of Muslims are peace loving?

If we took as truth everything we read in the media, then, conversely, "we would all know that Christian fundamentalists are hate-mongers bent on destroying this country." Fortunately most of us have a bit more knowledge on this topic and are merely amused at the audacity of the press to pass fiction as fact, though, there are countless others who are all too happy to lap up "all the news that's fit to print" as truth. Need proof? Just look at some past posts!

As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still out with regard to the Muslim psyche... I would like to believe that most Muslims are peace loving, however, I do not see a whole lot of confirmation on this...remember, actions speak louder than words...

I wish someone would please explain to me why the world's peace-loving Muslims have not banded together and told the hatred-filled few to take a seat...[see my other post on the NYT editorial by Thomas Friedman].


As Americans (or Western Europeans) we cannot grasp why in the world someone would want to strap on explosives and walk into a crowded market place. If your son or daughter committed such a heinous act, you would be filled with shame. Yet, producing a human bomb appears to be a source of pride within many Islamic communities...perhaps even among those we have labeled as peace loving individuals.

It's a value's divide. Judeo-Christian values versus Islamic values. The two are different. To think otherwise is foolhardy, and, perhaps dangerous. And I'm not talking about religion here, either. Our overall values, our sense of right from wrong, regardless of when, if ever, you have gone to church is well steeped in a Judeo-Christian worldview. Just like the overall values of Muslims is steeped in an Islamic worldview.

In the end, that's what will kick our a$$. We will continue to look at the problem through a Judeo-Christain worldview values lens...when what we need to do is look at the problem throuh an Islamic worldview values lens.

What is it that they say -- seek first to understand...I did not go into detail with my previous reply but I get more irritated every time I think about what you are saying. You doubt the simple notion that most Muslims are peace-loving people and state that our problem is a "values divide" between Judeo-Christians and Muslims. All because you don't know any Muslims or have no first hand knowledge of anything related to Islam. Well, my Christian values are insulted by your comments. Where is your faith in humanity? One of the underlying values that forms my Christian values is a basic faith in humanity. There is a capacity for good within us all. How can you possibly be a fan of Bruce Springsteen without having a basic faith in humanity? That faith is at the core of his work. I'm not talking about politics, liberalism or conservatism. I've never said you can't be a conservative Springsteen fan but I will say you have to have faith in humanity to be a fan.

I don't run in circles with a lot of Muslims. But even living in Kentucky I personally know a handful of Muslims, and there is no difference in their values than mine. Unless you live in your own little world or a very small town you probably know a few Muslims, its just that you don't know they are Muslim. They usually don't make a big deal out of it.

Do the math however you want. Look up the total number of Muslims in the world (take the lowest estimate you can find) and look up whatever count you can find on Muslim terrorists (oh heck, just double the highest count to be safe); subtract the terrorist number from the total number...........then try to reconsider your question of whether or not the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people.

[TIES2]

I did not go into detail with my previous reply but I get more irritated every time I think about what you are saying. You doubt the simple notion that most Muslims are peace-loving people and state that our problem is a "values divide" between Judeo-Christians and Muslims. All because you don't know any Muslims or have no first hand knowledge of anything related to Islam. Well, my Christian values are insulted by your comments. Where is your faith in humanity? One of the underlying values that forms my Christian values is a basic faith in humanity. There is a capacity for good within us all. How can you possibly be a fan of Bruce Springsteen without having a basic faith in humanity? That faith is at the core of his work. I'm not talking about politics, liberalism or conservatism. I've never said you can't be a conservative Springsteen fan but I will say you have to have faith in humanity to be a fan.

I don't run in circles with a lot of Muslims. But even living in Kentucky I personally know a handful of Muslims, and there is no difference in their values than mine. Unless you live in your own little world or a very small town you probably know a few Muslims, its just that you don't know they are Muslim. They usually don't make a big deal out of it.

Do the math however you want. Look up the total number of Muslims in the world (take the lowest estimate you can find) and look up whatever count you can find on Muslim terrorists (oh heck, just double the highest count to be safe); subtract the terrorist number from the total number...........then try to reconsider your question of whether or not the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people.


Get as irritated as you want...

Deb's comment that "we all know that the majority of Muslims are peace-loving..." strikes me as PR tag line...."Islam -- the peace-loving religion." If I believe it, it's not because I have any firsthand knowledge of it, it's because the media tells me it's true. Even the President in his address to the nation following 9/11 stated as much. As did Tony Blair in his remarks following the London bombings last week. So someone took exception with the headline claiming "Islam was at it again...." the offended were quick to point out it was not Islam but terrorists who committed these atrocities. Yet separating the terrorists from Islam is a little difficult since they are carrying out their acts of terror in the name of Islam.

Palestinian Pride points out that there is much condemnation of terrorists acts within the Muslim community...but where is the condemnation of the terrorists...of those carrying the attacks??????????

To be sure, Muslim clerics go on record denouncing terrorism, but they never go on record denouncing the terrorists responsible for the terrorism....

Why???????

I often have this nagging, uneasy feeling that there is a certain complicity within the Muslim community with regard to the terrorists...

Now, as for your Muslim neighbors in Kentucky...

Here's an except from a speaker at a Muslim conference held in Orlando in December 2004...

"Malik's [Imam Malik of Masjid Al-Islam] rhetoric evokes strong racial overtones as he warns young people about moderate American Muslims who he says have compromised their integrity to be "liked," becoming nothing more than "house slaves" in the mansion of a racist, imperialistic and destructive America."

Hmmm...doesn't sound so peace-loving to me...

And while the musings of this Imam might not echo the sentiments of your Muslim neighbors in Kentuckey, it does underscore the current grassroots movement within Islam.

I invite you to log on to this site...

http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/

I invite you to read some of the articles. I think you will find them largely disparaging of Christians, Jews, Americans, Europeans, secular humanists (of which I am quite sure you consider yourself a member), the governments in most Muslim countries, moderate and liberal muslims, in fact, just about everything but a very strict, conservative interpretation of Islam. And it is the push for this strict, conservative interepretation of Islam that is at the core of the current grassroots movement of Islam and is essentially what the pan-Islamic vision is all about.

Now talk to me about the values divide....

[TIES2]

I did not go into detail with my previous reply but I get more irritated every time I think about what you are saying. You doubt the simple notion that most Muslims are peace-loving people and state that our problem is a "values divide" between Judeo-Christians and Muslims. All because you don't know any Muslims or have no first hand knowledge of anything related to Islam. Well, my Christian values are insulted by your comments. Where is your faith in humanity? One of the underlying values that forms my Christian values is a basic faith in humanity. There is a capacity for good within us all. How can you possibly be a fan of Bruce Springsteen without having a basic faith in humanity? That faith is at the core of his work. I'm not talking about politics, liberalism or conservatism. I've never said you can't be a conservative Springsteen fan but I will say you have to have faith in humanity to be a fan.

I don't run in circles with a lot of Muslims. But even living in Kentucky I personally know a handful of Muslims, and there is no difference in their values than mine. Unless you live in your own little world or a very small town you probably know a few Muslims, its just that you don't know they are Muslim. They usually don't make a big deal out of it.

Do the math however you want. Look up the total number of Muslims in the world (take the lowest estimate you can find) and look up whatever count you can find on Muslim terrorists (oh heck, just double the highest count to be safe); subtract the terrorist number from the total number...........then try to reconsider your question of whether or not the majority of Muslims are peace-loving people.


If I only succeeded in irritating you before, what I'm about to write will undoubt enrage you...

I am still "stuck" on the packaging of Islam as a peaceful loving religion (which we seem to be buying into wholesale) yet within that framework of peace and love that we accept as true, we are also trying to combat an enemy that is waging war in the name of Islam.

How does that work????

I saw a show on the History channel recently about WWII and the hardship and suffering endured by US forces in Europe. One of the commentators, a high-ranking US Military official, noted that you can only win wars when the troops are all fired-up about the enemy. In essence, what he was saying is that being all fired-up is what gives them the energy to keep going when they haven't had any food, or to walk 40 miles with blisters on their feet. In short, the enemy has to be real, and, this is the part that will enrage you, hated (I do believe that's the exact word he used...).

And this started me thinking....

How would WWII have turned out if Churchill or Roosevelt or the media fed us a steady diet about how the majority of Germans were peace-loving individuals like you and me...how would that have affected how we dealt with the radical few who were inextricably linked with the purported peace-loving majority?????

I know this is not an entirely apples to apples comparison (it does require a bit of a mental leap), nor am I advocating hate...because I'm not...I'm just wondering...

I believe within psychology there is a theory (or maybe even truth) stating that the mind is incapable of holding two disparate thoughts at the same time...

Like friend and foe, perhaps?

Try not to get too worked up over this...like I said, I'm just wondering, and in wondering perhaps I can get others to wonder too rather than simply engage in lemming-like responses....skepticism, after all, can be healthy.


P.S. -- I consider myself a true and loyal Springsteen fan (even if I don't agree with his politics).

[Flory Days]

P.S. -- I consider myself a true and loyal Springsteen fan (even if I don't agree with his politics).
Maybe.....but you don't "get it". I say this not because of your politics but because of your attitude.

You disregard any media or opinion that does not support what you already believe and you completely trust everything you read that does reinforce what you want to believe. You base your initial premise of Muslims as not being peace-loving people on your own lack of personal knowledge and experience of Islam and Muslims. If you want to look at things through your own personal prism fine. But then you disregard any view that challenges your belief while seeking out and trumpeting any view that reinforces your belief. Be consistent. If you want to be skeptical of things you read because you just can't know for sure, then be skeptical of everything you read.

Yes, skepticism can be healthy. Why don't you try it on an equal opportunity basis?

Yes we have a values divide.......between your values and mine.

[dukestreetking]

Peace loving religion? No Arab state recongnized Israel. They vowed to send Israel into the sea.

"Muhammad's religion was born with the sword"
-Chant that was used to incite the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920
Source: Khalil al-Sakakini, Such am I, Oh World!

High school and lower grade textbooks in Egypt claim that American and British troops fought on behalf of Israel during the Six-Day War. The following example comes from ‘Abdallah Ahmad Hamid al-Qusi, Al-Wisam fi at-Ta'rikh (Cairo: Al-Mu'asasa al-‘Arabiya al-Haditha, 1999), p. 284.

The United States' role: Israel was not (fighting) on its own in the (1967) war. Hundreds of volunteers, pilots, and military officers with American scientific spying equipment of the most advanced type photographed the Egyptian posts for it (Israel), jammed the Egyptian defense equipment, and transmitted to it the orders of the Egyptian command.

This of course is just another malicious fabrication to INCITE violence against Jews and Christians.

DSK

[TIES2]

Maybe.....but you don't "get it". I say this not because of your politics but because of your attitude.

You disregard any media or opinion that does not support what you already believe and you completely trust everything you read that does reinforce what you want to believe. You base your initial premise of Muslims as not being peace-loving people on your own lack of personal knowledge and experience of Islam and Muslims. If you want to look at things through your own personal prism fine. But then you disregard any view that challenges your belief while seeking out and trumpeting any view that reinforces your belief. Be consistent. If you want to be skeptical of things you read because you just can't know for sure, then be skeptical of everything you read.

Yes, skepticism can be healthy. Why don't you try it on an equal opportunity basis?

Yes we have a values divide.......between your values and mine.

And I'm the only one who disregards any media or opinion that does not support what I already believe???? Your reply is guilty of the same as with most who post opinions here. If you read my posts on this topic, you would note that I observed there are a gazillion resources both for and against -- I have read opnions on both sides. Your assumption is that I only agree with the position of one and not the other. That's simply not true.

Stereotypes exist because there is an element of truth in the stereotype. However, while one may understand that a stereotype is based on an element of truth, one also understands it is not the whole truth. Most things are simply not one dimensional. Shades of gray far outweigh the black and white.

The link I suggested you visit was not the pontifications of the Western media, but that of a Muslim community. I assume there are others in the Muslim community who share this vantage point, that's all.

And, yes, I do not know any Muslims so I do depend on what I read for information...forgive me for questioning the verity of what I read.

I pointed to Deb's comment because it has become a stock catch-all. It smacks of PC or of editorial committees driven by our current national obsession to avoid offending anything or anyone. Noble? Yes. Practical or rooted in reality? Who knows.

[mhafinancial]

Here's a list of links to Muslim reactions to 9/11.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php
I think the problem here is that if we can't pronounce their names, then they don't count, right guys? :rolleyes:

In today's news was an interesting article on one of the many dichotomies facing the Palestinian people - hard line adherence to a more fundamentalist approach to their religion, or a relaxation consistent with today's modern world.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050713/ap_en_ot/palestinians_culture_war

[PalestinianPride]

Peace loving religion? No Arab state recongnized Israel. They vowed to send Israel into the sea.

"Muhammad's religion was born with the sword"
-Chant that was used to incite the Jerusalem pogrom of April, 1920
Source: Khalil al-Sakakini, Such am I, Oh World!

High school and lower grade textbooks in Egypt claim that American and British troops fought on behalf of Israel during the Six-Day War. The following example comes from ‘Abdallah Ahmad Hamid al-Qusi, Al-Wisam fi at-Ta'rikh (Cairo: Al-Mu'asasa al-‘Arabiya al-Haditha, 1999), p. 284.

The United States' role: Israel was not (fighting) on its own in the (1967) war. Hundreds of volunteers, pilots, and military officers with American scientific spying equipment of the most advanced type photographed the Egyptian posts for it (Israel), jammed the Egyptian defense equipment, and transmitted to it the orders of the Egyptian command.

This of course is just another malicious fabrication to INCITE violence against Jews and Christians.

DSK

I can find you many quotes by extremist Jews that are racist towards the Arab and Palestinian people...Am I going ahead and taking their words as a result of their religion?Am I going around and pitting them all in one and saying they are not peace-loving people because of some quotes of those racist extremist people?
What kind of a generalization are you making? Hey, some of those racist extremist Christians out there...just because there are some that are racist,ok...That means all Christians are not peace-loving people.*sarcasm*

David Goldman wrote:
"We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours."

Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet:
"We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters."

Yitzhak Ginsburg, "Five General Religious Duties Which Lie Behind the Act of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch Goldstein, May his Blood be Avenged":
"The killing by a Jew of a non-Jew, i.e. a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and Jews should therefore have no compunction about it."

Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25,1982:
"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."

David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978:
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/02/1572736.php

Ok,some Arab states do not recognize Israel as a state. Well, what about the Israeli government? At least Israel's name is on the map,while Palestinians are still being occupied with no independence whatsoever. So you think that Israel even recognizes a Palestinian state?No.

And just to tell you, there are Palestinian Christians too you know who are fighting for independence.

What do you mean to incite violence towards Jews and Christians? This is a war based on territory and religious grounds. There is going to be racist comments coming from BOTH sides. It does not mean that makes ALL Jews or ALL Palestinian Muslims or Christians racist.

[BruceNut]

hey dont hijack my thread with the Palestinian/Isreal crapola :)

[HeldUp]

Quotes from unknown people in the 1920s, DSK? Gimme a break! Look up the Stern Gang -- deemed terrorists by the British -- and see who's name pops up -- Yitzhak Shamir, former prime minister of Israel.

"Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle."

How about the USS Liberty, attacked by Israel during the 1967 six day war? Look it up.

Oops, sorry Mick.

[HeldUp]

In today's news was an interesting article on one of the many dichotomies facing the Palestinian people - hard line adherence to a more fundamentalist approach to their religion, or a relaxation consistent with today's modern world.
Substitute Palestinian with American and it fits, too!

[TIES2]

Check out the article below....it's all about the seemingly ordinary life of the four young men who in the end chose to strap on bombs in the name of Allah. Those who knew them were shocked for they seemd like "ordinary citizens just trying to live their lives." None had a record of terrorist connections, per se.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4678837.stm[/URL]

Think about it Flory, many perpetrators of the worst types of crimes outwardly appear to have ordinary or even exemplary lives...

What's my point? Apparently it is possible to sleep in the same bed with someone for 30 years and not really know their hearts ...how then are you suppose to know the hearts and thoughts of neighbors and others who you barely even know?

So while I can theorhetically agree that in general the majority of Muslims are peace loving individuals who just want to live their lives, I am faced with the problem of discerning the good from the bad...

Who knows, Flory -- a week ago, these four young men may have been listed among the peace-loving majority we hear so much about...

[Flory Days]

Who knows, Flory -- a week ago, these four young men may have been listed among the peace-loving majority we hear so much about...Right, four out of how many million? Or excuse me is it billion?

I think you can say the same thing about some of the people who have perpetrated senseless shooting sprees or uncomprehensible murders in this country. Does that mean we are not peace-loving people?

[TIES2]

Right, four out of how many million? Or excuse me is it billion?

I think you can say the same thing about some of the people who have perpetrated senseless shooting sprees or uncomprehensible murders in this country. Does that mean we are not peace-loving people?


Yes, but four people can ruin your day...

And it's not four out of how many million...I read somewhere that the radical element was roughly 10%, based on your millions or billions that translates into a different number...
or, put another way, many, many days ruined....

Again, back to Deb's statement, it's the patness of the phrase that irks me (not that Deb was being pat, she was simply reiterating what you read and hear on almost a daily basis)...I understand the BBC doesn't allow the use of the word terrorist...in fact, the media has come up with a rather lengthy lists of PC terms to discuss terrorism/terrorists without actually using the words terrorism/terrorists.


But the reality is --- there exists within the Muslim community a radical element of terrorists who would like to us die -- the larger the numbers, the better. This radical element is committing these acts of terror in the name of Islam, despite whether such acts are sanctioned or in keeping with the tenets of Islam.

Public outcry at the Catholic Church to rid its ranks of priests engaged in pedophilia was deafening (whether the church responded adequately is another matter entirely), nonetheless the public expected, [U]demanded[I], the Catholic Church to clean its house (and the press did not need to remind us that the majority of catholics are good souls).

Why then should we not call on the Muslim community to clean its house? To rid its ranks of these terrorist elements? Who better to go sit down with Bin Laden and crew and smack some sense into them than leaders of the worldwide Muslim community???????

[orthy]

Right, four out of how many million? Or excuse me is it billion?

I think you can say the same thing about some of the people who have perpetrated senseless shooting sprees or uncomprehensible murders in this country. Does that mean we are not peace-loving people?

Is it safe to say that if you have confidence in Bin Laden, view him favorably, or support him that you ARE NOT a peace loving person.?

Here are some facts:

In Morocco, 26 percent of the public now say they have a lot or some confidence in bin Laden. Morocco population is 30,122,350 - 7,831,811 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Lebanon, only 2 percent expressed some confidence in the Saudi-born al Qaeda leader. Lebanon population is 3,578,036 - 71,561 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Turkey, bin Laden's support has fallen to 7 percent from 15 percent in the past two years. Turkey population is 65,666,667 - 4,596,667 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Indonesia, it has dropped to 35 percent. Indonesia population is 224,784,210 - 78,674,473 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Jordan, confidence in bin Laden rose to 60 percent from 55 percent. Jordan population is 5,000,000 - 3,000,000 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Pakistan, it went to 51 percent from 45 percent. Pakistan population is 141,553,775 - 72,192,425 non-peace loving Muslims.

Almost half of all Saudis said in a poll conducted last year that they have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden. - Saudi Arabia population - 22,023,506 - 11,011,753 non-peace loving Muslims.

Let's assume it is the same in Afghanistan. Afghan population is 25,838,800 - 12,919,400 non-peace loving Muslims.

If the Muslim population is 1.7 billion (best I could find) there are 1.2 billion unaccounted for Muslims. Let's estimate conservatively and say only 5% fall into the above catagory. That is an additional 60,000,000.

Giving us a grand total of 250,298,090 non-peace loving Muslims or:

15% OF THE POPULATION. The blanket myth that they are peace loving people is ABSURD.....

[Flory Days]

Is it safe to say that if you have confidence in Bin Laden, view him favorably, or support him that you ARE NOT a peace loving person.?

Here are some facts:

In Morocco, 26 percent of the public now say they have a lot or some confidence in bin Laden. Morocco population is 30,122,350 - 7,831,811 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Lebanon, only 2 percent expressed some confidence in the Saudi-born al Qaeda leader. Lebanon population is 3,578,036 - 71,561 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Turkey, bin Laden's support has fallen to 7 percent from 15 percent in the past two years. Turkey population is 65,666,667 - 4,596,667 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Indonesia, it has dropped to 35 percent. Indonesia population is 224,784,210 - 78,674,473 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Jordan, confidence in bin Laden rose to 60 percent from 55 percent. Jordan population is 5,000,000 - 3,000,000 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Pakistan, it went to 51 percent from 45 percent. Pakistan population is 141,553,775 - 72,192,425 non-peace loving Muslims.

Almost half of all Saudis said in a poll conducted last year that they have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden. - Saudi Arabia population - 22,023,506 - 11,011,753 non-peace loving Muslims.

Let's assume it is the same in Afghanistan. Afghan population is 25,838,800 - 12,919,400 non-peace loving Muslims.

If the Muslim population is 1.7 billion (best I could find) there are 1.2 billion unaccounted for Muslims. Let's estimate conservatively and say only 5% fall into the above catagory. That is an additional 60,000,000.

Giving us a grand total of 250,298,090 non-peace loving Muslims or:

15% OF THE POPULATION. The blanket myth that they are peace loving people is ABSURD.....
I'm outta here for a needed vacation.........maybe some of my liberal friends will help me out........

[mhafinancial]

Is it safe to say that if you have confidence in Bin Laden, view him favorably, or support him that you ARE NOT a peace loving person.?

Here are some facts:

In Morocco, 26 percent of the public now say they have a lot or some confidence in bin Laden. Morocco population is 30,122,350 - 7,831,811 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Lebanon, only 2 percent expressed some confidence in the Saudi-born al Qaeda leader. Lebanon population is 3,578,036 - 71,561 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Turkey, bin Laden's support has fallen to 7 percent from 15 percent in the past two years. Turkey population is 65,666,667 - 4,596,667 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Indonesia, it has dropped to 35 percent. Indonesia population is 224,784,210 - 78,674,473 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Jordan, confidence in bin Laden rose to 60 percent from 55 percent. Jordan population is 5,000,000 - 3,000,000 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Pakistan, it went to 51 percent from 45 percent. Pakistan population is 141,553,775 - 72,192,425 non-peace loving Muslims.

Almost half of all Saudis said in a poll conducted last year that they have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden. - Saudi Arabia population - 22,023,506 - 11,011,753 non-peace loving Muslims.

Let's assume it is the same in Afghanistan. Afghan population is 25,838,800 - 12,919,400 non-peace loving Muslims.

If the Muslim population is 1.7 billion (best I could find) there are 1.2 billion unaccounted for Muslims. Let's estimate conservatively and say only 5% fall into the above catagory. That is an additional 60,000,000.

Giving us a grand total of 250,298,090 non-peace loving Muslims or:

15% OF THE POPULATION. The blanket myth that they are peace loving people is ABSURD.....

In what fashion do those polled "admire" or have "some confidence" in him?

As a religious leader?

A freedom fighter?

A jihadist?

A terrorist?

In a recent Rasmussen Poll, 25% said they greatly admire George Bush. Does that mean that 70 million people in this country are:

Warmongers?

Liars?

Stubborn to a fault?

Alcoholics?

[orthy]

In what fashion do those polled "admire" or have "some confidence" in him?

As a religious leader?

A freedom fighter?

A jihadist?

A terrorist?

In a recent Rasmussen Poll, 25% said they greatly admire George Bush. Does that mean that 70 million people in this country are:

Warmongers?

Liars?

Stubborn to a fault?

Alcoholics?

Does it really matter.??? If you have anything but the utmost contempt for him you are by definition, not a "peace-loving" person. And those rough numbers, which are probably conservative mind you, are mind boggling and dismiss the blanket myth about Muslims. A quarter of a billion. Of course Howard Dean doesn't even think he's guilty so maybe 15% of the Muslim population is on to something.

[orthy]

I'm outta here for a needed vacation.........maybe some of my liberal friends will help me out........

Good idea. Better than admitting how idealisticly naive you really are.

[HeldUp]

15% of me wants to give orthy a wedgy...

http://www.spotlitemagic.com/spotlitemagic/images/itemslarge/FW5465.jpg

[HeldUp]

Is it safe to say that if you have confidence in Bin Laden, view him favorably, or support him that you ARE NOT a peace loving person.?

Here are some facts:

In Morocco, 26 percent of the public now say they have a lot or some confidence in bin Laden. Morocco population is 30,122,350 - 7,831,811 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Lebanon, only 2 percent expressed some confidence in the Saudi-born al Qaeda leader. Lebanon population is 3,578,036 - 71,561 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Turkey, bin Laden's support has fallen to 7 percent from 15 percent in the past two years. Turkey population is 65,666,667 - 4,596,667 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Indonesia, it has dropped to 35 percent. Indonesia population is 224,784,210 - 78,674,473 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Jordan, confidence in bin Laden rose to 60 percent from 55 percent. Jordan population is 5,000,000 - 3,000,000 non-peace loving Muslims.

In Pakistan, it went to 51 percent from 45 percent. Pakistan population is 141,553,775 - 72,192,425 non-peace loving Muslims.

Almost half of all Saudis said in a poll conducted last year that they have a favorable view of Osama bin Laden. - Saudi Arabia population - 22,023,506 - 11,011,753 non-peace loving Muslims.

Let's assume it is the same in Afghanistan. Afghan population is 25,838,800 - 12,919,400 non-peace loving Muslims.

If the Muslim population is 1.7 billion (best I could find) there are 1.2 billion unaccounted for Muslims. Let's estimate conservatively and say only 5% fall into the above catagory. That is an additional 60,000,000.

Giving us a grand total of 250,298,090 non-peace loving Muslims or:

15% OF THE POPULATION. The blanket myth that they are peace loving people is ABSURD.....
Please share the source of this information.

[mhafinancial]

Please share the source of this information.
http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10042000/10042164.jpg

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[orthy]

Please share the source of this information.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2005-07-14T180440Z_01_SCH465045_RTRUKOC_0_MUSLIMS-BINLADEN.xml


and this is down from probably 17% - 18% a couple of years ago. So at least we (collectively) are moving in the right direction..

[orthy]

15% of me wants to give orthy a wedgy...

http://www.spotlitemagic.com/spotlitemagic/images/itemslarge/FW5465.jpg

understand, while I will never be considered "PC" I really hope that I will ultimately be disproven in this debate. Not on this board, of course, but in the long run. I want to be wrong.

[HeldUp]

[url]...and this is down from probably 17% - 18% a couple of years ago. So at least we (collectively) are moving in the right direction..
Thanks for the URL. BTW - Using your numbers, from 18% to 15%, support for OBL is down almost 20% in a couple of years. I may be ever the optimist, but it looks like change is in motion...

[orthy]

Thanks for the URL. BTW - Using your numbers, from 18% to 15%, support for OBL is down almost 20% in a couple of years. I may be ever the optimist, but it looks like change is in motion...

Agreed...Let's keep it up.

BTW, my we was "collective"..

[mhafinancial]

Does it really matter.??? If you have anything but the utmost contempt for him you are by definition, not a "peace-loving" person. And those rough numbers, which are probably conservative mind you, are mind boggling and dismiss the blanket myth about Muslims. A quarter of a billion. Of course Howard Dean doesn't even think he's guilty so maybe 15% of the Muslim population is on to something.
There is one thing that makes me think your blanket interpretation of the results of this type of poll is skewed. Here in the Western world, our exposure to OBL is obviously one that epitomizes the face of evil and terror. And, in my and most everyone else's opinion, rightly so. However, do you know how OBL is portrayed overseas in these predominantly Muslim countries?

Is he the face of terrorism, or is he the face of the freedom fighting mujahadeen who kept the Soviet Union from taking over Afghanistan?

Is he known in these countries as the mastermind of 9-11, or is he known as a devout Islamic scholar?

It is difficult to interpret the results of this type of question without knowing the foundation for the answers given. Years might pass before the magnitude of evil is known to those who might look up to an OBL or Stalin or Hitler.

Regardless, I was pleased to read that the positive feelings many in the Muslim world might have felt for OBL have been on the decrease. Maybe word is getting out.

[orthy]

There is one thing that makes me think your blanket interpretation of the results of this type of poll is skewed. Here in the Western world, our exposure to OBL is obviously one that epitomizes the face of evil and terror. And, in my and most everyone else's opinion, rightly so. However, do you know how OBL is portrayed overseas in these predominantly Muslim countries?

Is he the face of terrorism, or is he the face of the freedom fighting mujahadeen who kept the Soviet Union from taking over Afghanistan?

Is he known in these countries as the mastermind of 9-11, or is he known as a devout Islamic scholar?

It is difficult to interpret the results of this type of question without knowing the foundation for the answers given. Years might pass before the magnitude of evil is known to those who might look up to an OBL or Stalin or Hitler.

Regardless, I was pleased to read that the positive feelings many in the Muslim world might have felt for OBL have been on the decrease. Maybe word is getting out.

DF, if you need to be told that sympathizers of OBL are evil.....shame on you.

[mhafinancial]

DF, if you need to be told that sympathizers of OBL are evil.....shame on you.
You missed the point entirely.

The point is what if they do not know the true OBL?

It might be a hell of a lot easier to admire the guy if your only exposure to him is as a freedom fighter against enemies of Islam, and NOT as a treacherous murdering thug.

That is all I am saying. Here in this country Fox News skews things one way, the New York Times the other. Where are the people of Morocco and Turkey and wherever else getting their information from, and how skewed is the information they are receiving? THAT will have an impact on their perception of OBL.

Kids in the inner cities of America look up to the corner drug dealers because that is their frame of reference...the guy's got bling, he's cool, got the babes, and they wanna be just like him. You know the drug dealer is a bad guy. I know the drug dealer is a bad guy. But if you took a poll of inner city kids, they might look at him as a hero. It is all in your frame of reference.

I am not condoning a sympathetic point of view, I'm just stating that a sympathetic point of view, while anathema to our point of view and way of life, might be framed in a universe that is totally perpendicular to ours.

[orthy]

It might be a hell of a lot easier to admire the guy if your only exposure to him is as a freedom fighter against enemies of Islam, and NOT as a treacherous murdering thug.



correct...4 of them just blew up London. Pakistan was their last port, if I read correctly...

The level of sympathy you show is not productive. That is why the left is doomed.

[mhafinancial]

correct...4 of them just blew up London. Pakistan was their last port, if I read correctly...

The level of sympathy you show is not productive. That is why the left is doomed.
Again, you are missing the point.

I am not sympathetic to OBL, nor am I sympatheric to those who view him in a positive light. If you can't grasp the analogy I put forth and how one's viewpoint can be shaped by how much or how little information one is allowed to process, so be it. It in no way transforms to "sympathy" for that point of view.

YOU posted some "facts". These 'facts" were based on your interpolating the results of a poll across the broad spectrum of citizens of a given country. You took Muslims, grouped them all together, and proceeded to condemn them.

You neglected to share the headline of the article you quoted from: Support for bin Laden falls in Muslim countries Instead of highlighting the positive, that in Morocco, support for Bin Laden has fallen from 49% of those polled two years ago to 26% now, in Lebanon only 2% expressed some level of confidence in Bin Laden, in Turkey is support has gone from 15% of those polled to 7%, in Indonesia support has gone from 58% to 35%, you chose to take the percentages of those who expressed "support" for Bin Laden, without knowing what "support" in this context means, multiply those in "support" by the country's population, and extrpolated a number in each country that, in your warped conclusion is therefore for hatred, terrorism and violence.

If shame be dumped on anyone for any posts here tonite, you'd be swimming in shame for the rest of the summer.

Oh, in Pakistan, where Bush has cozied up quite nicely to Musharref, support for Bin Laden has increased from 55% to 60%.

[Flory Days]

Good job David!

And you too Orthy, for you have proven me correct. I started out contesting Ties 2's statement that the majority of Muslims may not be peace loving people. So by using your numbers, even notwithstanding declining numbers and unknown context, it appears that 15-20% of Muslims at most support OBL. A majority would be 50.1%, so we are now in agreement on this issue. The majority do appear to quite likely be peace loving. Now, I really am out of here for the next 9 days. I know you will want to, but please resist the temptation to leave me with a cheap shot. ;)

[orthy]

Good job David!

And you too Orthy, for you have proven me correct. I started out contesting Ties 2's statement that the majority of Muslims may not be peace loving people. So by using your numbers, even notwithstanding declining numbers and unknown context, it appears that 15-20% of Muslims at most support OBL. A majority would be 50.1%, so we are now in agreement on this issue. The majority do appear to quite likely be peace loving. Now, I really am out of here for the next 9 days. I know you will want to, but please resist the temptation to leave me with a cheap shot. ;)

Bury your head in the sand retard....you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried..

[Flory Days]

But I don't do name-calling contests.

[mhafinancial]

Bury your head in the sand retard....you couldn't be further from the truth if you tried..
:roll: You are too much. ;)

[orthy]

Good job David!

And you too Orthy, for you have proven me correct. I started out contesting Ties 2's statement that the majority of Muslims may not be peace loving people. So by using your numbers, even notwithstanding declining numbers and unknown context, it appears that 15-20% of Muslims at most support OBL. A majority would be 50.1%, so we are now in agreement on this issue. The majority do appear to quite likely be peace loving. Now, I really am out of here for the next 9 days. I know you will want to, but please resist the temptation to leave me with a cheap shot. ;)

You, and the rest of your "Kentucky Muslims" ,are as far from reality as can be.....

[mhafinancial]

Good job David!


I know...thank you. Enjoy your vacation. Thanks for leaving me with the wolves. I will return the favor the first week in August.

[mhafinancial]

You, and the rest of your "Kentucky Muslims" ,are as far from reality as can be.....
Isn't that a Neil Diamond song?

[orthy]

Fill us in on the Kentucky Muslims...Please Mark.....I saw a stat the other day that said Kentucky had the least number of Muslims per capita....BUT...........

YOU KNOW ALL THESE MUSLIMS..!!!!!


Fill us in.!

[Flory Days]

My kids go to a diverse school. Even a few Bush/Cheney signs in the parking lot. I know Aru, Omar, Elias.......their spouses.... and I know of maybe 10 others I see but admittedly do not know well.

Deena is thinking of starting a central Kentucky chapter but she still has to learn Arabic. ;) :D

[mhafinancial]

Fill us in on the Kentucky Muslims...Please Mark.....I saw a stat the other day that said Kentucky had the least number of Muslims per capita....BUT...........

YOU KNOW ALL THESE MUSLIMS..!!!!!


Fill us in.!
I don't know about Kentucky, but the top ten States population-wise represent 62% of the estimated 5 million Muslims in the U.S.

Muslim State Population Table

Population % of US Pop % of Total State Pop
California 1,000,000..........20.0..........3.4
New York 800,000..........16.0..........4.7
Illinois 420,000............8.4..........3.6
New Jersey 200,000............4.0..........2.5
Indiana 180,000...........3.6..........3.2
Michigan 170,000...........3.4..........1.8
Virginia 150,000...........3.0..........2.4
Texas 140,000...........2.8..........0.7
Ohio 130,000...........2.6..........1.2
Maryland 70,000............1.4..........1.4

http://www.islam101.com/history/population2_usa.html

[orthy]

My kids go to a diverse school. Even a few Bush/Cheney signs in the parking lot. I know Aru, Omar, Elias.......their spouses.... and I know of maybe 10 others I see but admittedly do not know well.

Deena is thinking of starting a central Kentucky chapter but she still has to learn Arabic. ;) :D

.......

[mhafinancial]

Fill us in on the Kentucky Muslims...Please Mark.....I saw a stat the other day that said Kentucky had the least number of Muslims per capita....BUT...........

YOU KNOW ALL THESE MUSLIMS..!!!!!


Fill us in.!
Less than North Dakota? Puh-leeeze.

http://www.theislamproject.org/images/united_states_final.jpg

[TIES2]

Again, you are missing the point.

I am not sympathetic to OBL, nor am I sympatheric to those who view him in a positive light. If you can't grasp the analogy I put forth and how one's viewpoint can be shaped by how much or how little information one is allowed to process, so be it. It in no way transforms to "sympathy" for that point of view.

ahem...from the article orthy posted...

"Despite terrorism fears, majorities in Britain, the United States, France, Canada and Russia and pluralities in Spain and Poland expressed favorable views about Muslims"

Perhaps the Western media with its constant hammering about the peace loving virtues of the muslim majority factor into these results, too! As you know, I whole heartedly agree with you that one's viewpoint can be shaped!

YOU posted some "facts". These 'facts" were based on your interpolating the results of a poll across the broad spectrum of citizens of a given country. You took Muslims, grouped them all together, and proceeded to condemn them.

You neglected to share the headline of the article you quoted from: Support for bin Laden falls in Muslim countries Instead of highlighting the positive, that in Morocco, support for Bin Laden has fallen from 49% of those polled two years ago to 26% now, in Lebanon only 2% expressed some level of confidence in Bin Laden in Turkey is support has gone from 15% of those polled to 7%, in Indonesia support has gone from 58% to 35%, you chose to take the percentages of those who expressed "support" for Bin Laden, without knowing what "support" in this context means, multiply those in "support" by the country's population, and extrpolated a number in each country that, in your warped conclusion is therefore for hatred, terrorism and violence.

Hmmmm....I agree that the headline is encouraging -- perhaps we are winning this war on terror after all! Surprise, surprise!

But what the article does not answer is the WHY the support is falling....is it falling because they have lost confidence in his ability to get the job done...is it falling because they now feel what is happening in Iraq could happen in their country, too?

On a more serious level, the last poll was taken 2 years ago. That was two years closer to 9/11 and only a few months after the US launched the war in Iraq. Timing, as we know, can play a factor.

And what about the sample...same selection criteria used? Same people polled...I doubt it, but if you told me these results were among the same 17K I could only conclude that we were well on our way to winning the war on terror -- and that would be something we could all smile about...

Oh, in Pakistan, where Bush has cozied up quite nicely to Musharref, support for Bin Laden has increased from 55% to 60%.

Not to mention that Bin Laden is holed up in a hut somewhere in Pakistan...but that should have no bearing on the poll results...

[TIES2]

Good job David!

And you too Orthy, for you have proven me correct. I started out contesting Ties 2's statement that the majority of Muslims may not be peace loving people. So by using your numbers, even notwithstanding declining numbers and unknown context, it appears that 15-20% of Muslims at most support OBL. A majority would be 50.1%, so we are now in agreement on this issue. The majority do appear to quite likely be peace loving. Now, I really am out of here for the next 9 days. I know you will want to, but please resist the temptation to leave me with a cheap shot. ;)

Flory, I am disappointed in you...my point all along has not been whether the muslim majority is peace loving or not, but rather the length to which the media has gone to tell me this in that pat, pc way they have! They're messing with your mind...

But isn't it a little simplistic to assume that because only 15-20% support bin-Laden that the rest, by default, are peace loving????? You're probably right, but your logic is no better than Orthy's!!!!!!

It's like saying since only x% support Bush then y% must be democrats... :scratch:

Anyway, I hope you have a wonderful vacation.....

[orthy]

Less than North Dakota? Puh-leeeze.

http://www.theislamproject.org/images/united_states_final.jpg


......

[HeldUp]

Interesting items from the recent poll. Since the polling was done before the terrorist bombings in London last week, I'd bet that support has fallen even further:

"For some youth Osama Bin Laden is like Che Guevera, it does not matter what you say, he is a hero to them. Our challenge is how to limit the extent of this heroic admiration among the youth."

Reasons for Islamic extremism varied from one majority-Muslim country to the next. Poverty and a lack of jobs were mentioned most often in some countries, while U.S. policies and influence were mentioned in others. Lack of education, immorality and lawlessness also were cited.

The surveys found that public acceptance is growing in some majority-Muslim countries that democracy is not strictly a Western way of doing things but could work in their countries. In Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco and Indonesia, increasing numbers of people feel that democracy can work there.

[orthy]

The surveys found that public acceptance is growing in some majority-Muslim countries that democracy is not strictly a Western way of doing things but could work in their countries. In Lebanon, Jordan, Morocco and Indonesia, increasing numbers of people feel that democracy can work there.

Gee, wonder who is responsible for this.

This is what the left can't see. Democracy in Iraq will create democracy in other areas of the world. Your "fact" above is case in point. It is not as if the majority of people in these countries woke up one morning as said, wow, I think its time for a change. No. Our Iraqi campaign and the spread of freedom in that region is responsible for this, pure and simple. And we all know that the cost of freedom is high but this is evidence of what we are fighting for....And we will all benefit from the spread of freedom and democracy..

It is amazing to me how undeniably short-sighted the left really is.

[HeldUp]

Did you notice the reasons cited for terrorism: Poverty and lack of education, along with a hatred of U.S. policies/influence in the region. Sound familiar? Those items should be listed as ingrediences on how to make a bomb...

In Egypt, people can't afford to get married because the jobs available -- even for those with PhDs -- don't pay well enough to find a place to live. And you wonder why people yearn for extremism as a last resort.

Wanna make people happy? Give 'em food, jobs, affordable housing and don't tell them what to do.

[orthy]

Wanna make people happy? Give 'em food, jobs, affordable housing and don't tell them what to do.

We've seen how that attitude and sense of entitlement has doomed millions in this country. Can't you liberals solve problems through any other means.?

If poverty and lack of education were that large a catylst for terrorism one would think that homeless shelters would be like Afghan training camps. Quit making excuses for these pieces of garbage.

[mhafinancial]

Gee, wonder who is responsible for this.

It is amazing that you can think that the war in Iraq is causing Muslims in other nations to rethink whether or not democracy will work in their countries. Let's get it working in Iraq before claiming any type of credit for other nations.

I suppose the next thing the right will claim is that the war in Iraq will be a "cure" for homosexuality. :rolleyes:

[orthy]

It is amazing that you can think that the war in Iraq is causing Muslims in other nations to rethink whether or not democracy will work in their countries. Let's get it working in Iraq before claiming any type of credit for other nations.

I suppose the next thing the right will claim is that the war in Iraq will be a "cure" for homosexuality. :rolleyes:

HELLO.??????

What else would you attribute it to.? Growing sensibilities.? Give me a break. GWB has done and will do more to spread freedom in this world than any president past or future. The left simply refuses to see it.

[mhafinancial]

HELLO.??????

What else would you attribute it to.? Growing sensibilities.? Give me a break. GWB has done and will do more to spread freedom in this world than any president past or future. The left simply refuses to see it.
You think this is something new? Something W created? Get real.

It is the continuing evolution against oppression and civil war. Jimmy Carter has done more to promote democracy around the world over the last 25 years than W could ever hope to, and he has done it thropugh peaceful means, not with the stick.

Believe what you want. You want to believe that Bush is the angel of freedom, be my guest. You want to believe his rhetoric about his policies spreading democracy, that's cool with me.

Just giving people the right to vote is not democracy. They've been voting in Egypt for years. This year, there will be more than one candidate, as long as Mubarak approves of whoever else is on the ballot. Hell, they used to vote in Iraq. They vote in Saudi Arabia....well, the men do at least.

Democracy is more than just a vote. It is a job. It is a home. It is education. It is hoping that our children can do better for themselves than we did. It is freedom to criticize the government. It is a fair and just legal system. It is the celebration of diversity. It is truth from a nation's leaders.

Explain to me how Bush is promoting these values overseas, and in what nation's his efforts are making a difference. Direct cause and effect, please, not circumstantial or anecdotal wishes.

BTW - Take a look here (http://www.cartercenter.org/default.asp?bFlash=True) how Jimmy Carter is out there promoting these issues and making a difference all over the world.

[orthy]

I'm late for happy hour (s) will revisit later. This is from 03, just a taste of the administrations accomplishments. If Jimmy Cater were president today......man, I can't even stand the thought [shivers]

A RECORD OF ACCOMPLISHMENT AROUND THE WORLD: The Administration has pursued a policy of promoting freedom and human dignity in every part of the world. We pursue this policy both because it is right and because it also addresses the fear, hatred, and inequality that contributes to terrorism and violence.

Our policy is based on core values that uphold human rights through democracy and the rule of law. We are committed to pursuing freedom and promoting democracy and human rights, through both words and deeds, as a member of the international community.

Greater Middle East: Moved support for democracy in the Middle East to top of regional agenda, including support for individual champions of human rights and for reform efforts in Jordan, Morocco, the Gulf, and elsewhere.

o Afghanistan: Policy based on achieving democracy through the Bonn process and assistance to constitutional, human rights and judicial commissions; established US-Afghan Women's Council and funded centers to promote women's education, entrepreneurship, and political participation.

o Iraq: After removing oppressive regime, now leading international coalition to assist in Iraq's transition to democracy; established Iraqi Governing Council, representing the diversity of Iraqi society, to help chart course towards drafting, ratifying, and implementing a new constitution; building civil society through grants, workshops, consultations, and technical assistance to a wide range of Iraqi groups; provided over $100 million to date for local governance programs; supported women's conferences; and established Abuse Prevention Unit.

o Middle East Partnership Initiative: Established first initiative to support political reform efforts and economic development, especially for women and youth.

o Middle East Peace: Placed democracy and human rights at the heart of efforts for a two-state solution to the Israeli/Palestinian dispute, demanded reforms in governance of Palestinian Authority.

Africa: The Administration has an unparalleled record of engagement in Africa that incorporates support for democracy, reform, respect for human dignity and peace on the continent. Our achievements include:

o Liberia: Sponsored UN sanctions; engaged with ECOWAS and key regional actors to negotiate peace deal ending civil war that had serious human rights abuses.

o Sudan: Heavily engaged in the peace process to end Africa's longest-running civil war.

o Zimbabwe: Imposed targeted sanctions against President Mugabe,

Zimbabwean Government officials, and their spouses in an effort to protest and stop policies that undermine democratic processes and institutions.

Asia: Our policy is focused on assisting countries on the path towards democratization and long-term reform, and calling attention to those who fall short.

o Burma: Leads international calls for release of Aung San Suu Kyi and for return to inclusive political dialogue to restore democracy; condemns regime for its human rights abuses; strengthened sanctions on the regime for its imprisonment of democracy leaders and extensive human rights abuses.

o China: Moved from defining progress on human rights solely by prisoner releases to also enhancing rule of law, electoral and other developments by increasing funding for programs from $7M in FY02 to $12M in FY03.

o North Korea: Co-sponsored the first UN Commission on Human Rights (UNCHR) resolution on human rights in North Korea to call international attention to abuses; consistently put human rights on the table during multilateral talks among other subjects.

Central Asia: Contact with the region after September 11 focused on war on terror and engagement on human rights practices of countries in the region.

o Democracy and Human Rights Funding after 9/11: Doubled funding for democracy programs in Kyrgyzstan (funded first free printing press) and Turkmenistan; quadrupled funding for democracy programs in Uzbekistan (funded first political party programs) and Tajikistan.

o Human Rights Practices: Sponsored first UNCHR resolution on human rights practices in Belarus and co-sponsored first UNCHR resolution on Turkmenistan; concluded Joint Declarations with Presidents of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan that cite continued progress on democracy and human rights as central to our bilateral relationships.

o Georgia: Appointed James Baker as Presidential Envoy to underscore the need for free and fair parliamentary elections this November. Election results are incoming and we are counting on the Government and people of Georgia to ensure a free and fair outcome.

Western Hemisphere: Commitment to democratic, constitutional governments through the Summit of the America's "Democracy Clause." Strong support for multi-lateral engagement to address democratic crises in Bolivia, Venezuela, and Haiti. Continuing efforts to promote rapid, peaceful democratic transition in Cuba.

o Democracy in the region: Concluded Inter-American Democratic Charter, which defines Western Hemisphere by its commitment to democratic principles.

o Cuba: Launched "Initiative for a New Cuba" challenging regime to undertake political and economic reforms; supported resolution at UNCHR this year.

o Haiti: Member of "Group of Friends" working to help the Haitian people build democratic institutions, supporting OAS efforts to resolve the political crisis.

o Venezuela: Member of OAS Secretary General's "Group of Friends" providing support for efforts to comply with OAS Resolution 833 calling for a peaceful, democratic, constitutional, and electoral solution to the political crisis through the referendum process.

International Institutions: Committed to reforming and rejoining international institutions that support human rights, and promoting new initiatives.

o Commission on Human Rights: Actively engaged in reforming UNCHR to realize its potential through membership and other changes.

o UNESCO: Rejoined organization to promote education and democracy.

o UN General Assembly: On November 6, 2003, U.S.-introduced resolution on Women and Political Participation was passed by the UNGA.

Human Dignity: The Administration has taken special efforts to safeguard the dignity of the individual.

o Cloning: Co-sponsored resolution at the UNGA calling for ban on all forms of human cloning.

o Religious Freedom: Worked with OSCE to hold first meetings on religious freedom, including anti-Semitism in Europe.

o Trafficking in Persons: President announced $50 million to support organizations that rehabilitate women and children who have been trafficked; U.S. efforts have led many governments to improve their own laws and performance.

Programs to Support Democracy and Human Rights: Significantly increased funding levels for Human Rights and Democracy Fund administered by the Department of State.

[mhafinancial]

I'm late for happy hour (s) will revisit later. This is from 03, just a taste of the administrations accomplishments. If Jimmy Cater were president today......man, I can't even stand the thought [shivers]

Not saying he should be prez, not saying he was a good prez. However, he has done more as a goodwill ambassador around the world than W could ever hope to accomplish with his go it alone heavy handed tactics.

A RECORD OF ACCOMPLISHMENT AROUND THE WORLD: The Administration has pursued a policy of promoting freedom and human dignity in every part of the world. We pursue this policy both because it is right and because it also addresses the fear, hatred, and inequality that contributes to terrorism and violence.

Our policy is based on core values that uphold human rights through democracy and the rule of law. We are committed to pursuing freedom and promoting democracy and human rights, through both words and deeds, as a member of the international community.


Total self-promoting lip service. If this is the case, why is the world's view of us so poor? Oh, I forgot, this brochure is right, and the rest of the world can go pound sand, which remains the empirical thrust of the Bush-Cheney foreign policy doctrine.

Greater Middle East: Moved support for democracy in the Middle East to top of regional agenda, including support for individual champions of human rights and for reform efforts in Jordan, Morocco, the Gulf, and elsewhere.

Again, what is their view of "democracy? The vote? How about safe and secure borders. A home. A job. A future. Now, according to the article you linked us to, Bush's policies must really be selling well in Jordan, one of the only countries in the list to have MORE of those polled who support suicide bombing, and increase from 43% to 57%. In Morocco, 73% felt Islamic extremism was a threat to their country, yet they blamed the extremism on poverty, unemployment or poor education. How is the blessed right to vote helping them rise from poverty?

o Afghanistan: Policy based on achieving democracy through the Bonn process and assistance to constitutional, human rights and judicial commissions; established US-Afghan Women's Council and funded centers to promote women's education, entrepreneurship, and political participation.

Driving out the Taliban leadership was a good start. We should have let the military finish the job, which brings us to.....

o Iraq: After removing oppressive regime, now leading international coalition to assist in Iraq's transition to democracy; established Iraqi Governing Council, representing the diversity of Iraqi society, to help chart course towards drafting, ratifying, and implementing a new constitution; building civil society through grants, workshops, consultations, and technical assistance to a wide range of Iraqi groups; provided over $100 million to date for local governance programs; supported women's conferences; and established Abuse Prevention Unit.

I won't even go here. It's too easy.

o Middle East Partnership Initiative: Established first initiative to support political reform efforts and economic development, especially for women and youth.

Any specific programs or results? These goals are totally vague. Talking about initiatives does not mean there have been actual results.

o Middle East Peace: Placed democracy and human rights at the heart of efforts for a two-state solution to the Israeli/Palestinian dispute, demanded reforms in governance of Palestinian Authority.

For gosh sakes, every world leader has demanded reforms in the governance of the Palestinian Authority. And everyone knew the only way to get that reform was to have Arafat, a terrorist, thief and liar if ever there was one, dead and buried. Now unless Bush put a hit on him...which I doubt...Rove maybe, but not Bush....you get no credit for this one.

Africa: The Administration has an unparalleled record of engagement in Africa that incorporates support for democracy, reform, respect for human dignity and peace on the continent. Our achievements include:

o Liberia: Sponsored UN sanctions; engaged with ECOWAS and key regional actors to negotiate peace deal ending civil war that had serious human rights abuses.

Hopefully someone will clean up the mess that Ronald Reagan begat. Liberia enjoyed democracy and prosperity until 1980, when a low-ranking officer in the presidential guard, Samuel K. Doe, murdered the president, executed the nation's entire Cabinet and declared himself ruler. Within months, the newly inaugurated Ronald Reagan locked down Mr. Doe's hold on power by showering him with $500 million in taxpayer dollars, the most aid granted any African nation.

America's cash funded Mr. Doe's stay in power, and the misery and poverty it brought with it.

And it is the 14,000 member UN peacekeeping force that is maintaining some semblance or normalcy in Liberia, not this admin or its policies.

o Sudan: Heavily engaged in the peace process to end Africa's longest-running civil war.

OK, that is the way this administration sees it. But across the pond, the Eurpoean Sudanese Public Affairs Council sees our role in a totally different light:

American Government support for ethnic cleansing in southern Sudan

If there is a comparison to be made between southern Sudan and Kosovo by way of ethnic cleansing, it is one which reflects very badly indeed on the American government. It is an open secret that Washington has been militarily and politically supporting the SPLA rebel movement in southern Sudan. Yet it is the SPLA that has been actively involved in the most blatant and ruthless ethnic cleansing seen in southern Sudan.

The Economist, for example, has described the SPLA as "at its worst…little more than an armed gang of Dinkas…killing, looting and raping". Africa Watch, African Rights, Amnesty and others have provided chilling examples of SPLA ethnic cleansing of tribes such as the Nuer, Shilluk, Mandari, Taposa and Murle in southern Sudan.

Amnesty International states that the SPLA has attacked other rebel factions and civilian groups "for ethnic reasons". Amnesty International also stated that the SPLA has destroyed Nuer villages, murdering tribesmen and displacing tens of thousands of people. As but one example of SPLA ethnic cleansing, Amnesty reported that in April 1993, Garang’s forces "massacred about 200 Nuer villagers, many of them children, in villages around the town of Ayod. Some of the victims were shut in huts and burnt to death. Others were shot." In Kosovo, this would have been a war crime: in Sudan, such activity is militarily and diplomatically supported by Washington.

o Zimbabwe: Imposed targeted sanctions against President Mugabe, Zimbabwean Government officials, and their spouses in an effort to protest and stop policies that undermine democratic processes and institutions.

Ok, something to cheer about.

Asia: Our policy is focused on assisting countries on the path towards democratization and long-term reform, and calling attention to those who fall short.

o Burma: Leads international calls for release of Aung San Suu Kyi and for return to inclusive political dialogue to restore democracy; condemns regime for its human rights abuses; strengthened sanctions on the regime for its imprisonment of democracy leaders and extensive human rights abuses.

Fine, us and everyone else. Not much more we can do, other than march in like we did in Iraq. And maybe we should, since Burma poses about the same threat risk.

o China: Moved from defining progress on human rights solely by prisoner releases to also enhancing rule of law, electoral and other developments by increasing funding for programs from $7M in FY02 to $12M in FY03.

We need to kiss their ass right now, because China is funding most of the budget deficit through their purchase of U.S. government debt. That $12M we funded in FY 03 represents about a day's interest.


Anyway, that's it for now. Dinner time. Enjoy your drinkies.

And NONE of these alleged "accomplishments" explains how Bush's policies are fostering democracy in the Middle East.

[PalestinianPride]

Who is Bush and the U.S. government administration to push their ideals and principles into the Middle East in order to make it a "democracy"?So they go in and go head and make wars where they send soldiers to their death beds and kill of thousands of innocent civilians along the way to "democratize" the Middle East?"Democracy",B.S. It is more like the continuation of an imperialist quest that the U.S. is doing in order to dominate and control the Middle East region for their own self-interests and benefits. A democracy is going in, invading with a pre-emptive strike,making a war,killing thousands of civilians, and occupying Iraq?That is a democracy?If that is considered to be a "democracy" and thousands of my Arab brethens along with mothers and children have to be killed in order for that fake B.S. democracy to be fulfilled,then no thanks,I'll pass.

I'll tell you one thing for sure the Middle East wants.The Arab people want the Americans out and they want the U.S. presence to stay out and to stop meddling with their affairs and taking advantage of their oil and their people.

[orthy]

Who is Bush and the U.S. government administration to push their ideals and principles into the Middle East in order to make it a "democracy"?So they go in and go head and make wars where they send soldiers to their death beds and kill of thousands of innocent civilians along the way to "democratize" the Middle East?"Democracy",B.S. It is more like the continuation of an imperialist quest that the U.S. is doing in order to dominate and control the Middle East region for their own self-interests and benefits. A democracy is going in, invading with a pre-emptive strike,making a war,killing thousands of civilians, and occupying Iraq?That is a democracy?If that is considered to be a "democracy" and thousands of my Arab brethens along with mothers and children have to be killed in order for that fake B.S. democracy to be fulfilled,then no thanks,I'll pass.

I'll tell you one thing for sure the Middle East wants.The Arab people want the Americans out and they want the U.S. presence to stay out and to stop meddling with their affairs and taking advantage of their oil and their people.

8 million Iraqis voted representing a turnout rate of about 57%. Higher than here. I'd say that qualifies and a pro-democracy fact. And thousands of your Arab bretheren killed.? Hundreds of thousands were killed under Hussein. HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS. You should be penning thank you letters to the White House everyday you ungrateful prick.

[murphy]

Jimmy Carter has done more to promote democracy around the world over the last 25 years than W could ever hope to, and he has done it thropugh peaceful means, not with the stick.



And did a fine job with 52 american hostages held for 444 days..............PLEASE

At least now I see you pattern. If a Democrat is in Office ALL is WELL. If a Republican is in Office the world is in the toilet.

Have a good day Mr Tunnel :roll: :hah: ;) :scratch:

[murphy]

I suppose the next thing the right will claim is that the war in Iraq will be a "cure" for homosexuality.

Bill "i did not have sex with that woman" Clinton
:roll: :zzz: :hah:

[dhenise]

8 million Iraqis voted representing a turnout rate of about 57%. Higher than here. I'd say that qualifies and a pro-democracy fact. And thousands of your Arab bretheren killed.? Hundreds of thousands were killed under Hussein. HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS. You should be penning thank you letters to the White House everyday you ungrateful prick.

Love ya Orth. :p

[mhafinancial]

And did a fine job with 52 american hostages held for 444 days..............PLEASE

At least now I see you pattern. If a Democrat is in Office ALL is WELL. If a Republican is in Office the world is in the toilet.

Have a good day Mr Tunnel :roll: :hah: ;) :scratch:
Actually I am talking about since he left office.

You seem to ignore
Not saying he should be prez, not saying he was a good prez. However, he has done more as a goodwill ambassador around the world than W could ever hope to accomplish with his go it alone heavy handed tactics.

[Incident]

From what I understood Heldup to be saying earlier that people who believe in this extreme Islam are not actually Muslims. So it would appear that the statistics that say a certain percentage of Muslims support Bin Laden are clearly wrong. Since it is incompatible for a true Muslim to support Bin Laden they must therefore not be Muslims. So, in fact, there are zero Muslims that support Bin Laden. Eh?

[HeldUp]

If poverty and lack of education were that large a catylst for terrorism one would think that homeless shelters would be like Afghan training camps. Quit making excuses for these pieces of garbage.
I would never make excuses for these poor excuses for human beings. Remove the cancer and also look at the root causes of the cancer. It's a two-fold solution. Otherwise, the cancer just keeps coming back...

[PalestinianPride]

8 million Iraqis voted representing a turnout rate of about 57%. Higher than here. I'd say that qualifies and a pro-democracy fact. And thousands of your Arab bretheren killed.? Hundreds of thousands were killed under Hussein. HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS. You should be penning thank you letters to the White House everyday you ungrateful prick.

Excuse me?Who are you to talk to me in that manner?

I was born in Kuwait, and my parents both graduated from prominent Iraqi universities where they had a FREE educational system in which they weren't even allowed to attend post-secondary education in Kuwait because of their Palestinian ethnicity.

I have experienced an invasion by Saddam Hussein's regime. We escaped Kuwait because of the Gulf War. I remember the Iraqi tanks rolling up on Kuwaiti beaches.

First off,as for that so-called democratic election process. It is ALL B.S. We all know it was rigged for the fact that in turn an American allied government can be installed. This is exactly what happened to Latin America in the 70s and 80s.

Saddam has killed a lot of people in all of a result because of a civil war. He was a brutal dictator,but let me tell you something...Saddam is just like the other Arab dictators out there who are ALLIES with the U.S. (ex. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya,etc...) The only reason Saddam is gone is because he was a threat to the imperialist quest of the American government and a threat to them. He was also a threat to the distribution of western oil supply. If Saddam still kissed asses to the American government like the Saudis do and like he did back in the late 80s,he'd STILL be ruling Iraq today with an iron fist. And don't forget that it was with the help of the American government and the CIA that the Baathist regime got to overthrow Iraq's Communist Party in the 60s. And don't forget that Reagan supplied biological weapons to Saddam as he was his best ally in order to fight Iran in which Saddam used these chemical weapons on his own people. Now tell me if you believe that Bush is all for democracy,then why the heck is he allies with one of the most oppressive and brutal regimes,Saudi Arabia???Oh yes, black oil gives you friends with benefits. You think Bush and the U.S. government cares for a true "democracy" in the Middle East?You think that if the Middle East had no natural resources and didn't have Israel (which is an important region for Western interests) and especially black oil,and that if Iraq was in the depths of Africa instead...You think they'd blink an eye to it?

And yes, hundreds and thousands of Iraqis are killed by American troops, air raids,missiles and apache helipcopters. Iraqi civilians are being slaughtered for black oil and some are maimed for the rest of their lives because of a senseless and unjustifiable war. Look at what some of the American troops did in Abu Gharib and other detention centres...Look at how Iraqi children and families are killed because of American missiles dropping in their backyards...Is that democracy to you? How about the FACT that some American troops would storm in Iraqi houses and randomly shoot Iraqis for no apparent reason and then steal their belongings? Is that democracy?Do you EVER hear about their stories on the news? Do you ever see memorial ceremonies for the Iraqis that have died in this war all of for Bush and instead they have to die in vain?Did you ever hear what American troops did in Fallujah last year and how they creamed the city?

Have you heard accounts of stories like these from a 17 year old teenager?

...
"On 9 November American marines came to our house. My father and the neighbour went to the door to meet them. We were not fighters. We thought we had nothing to fear. I ran into the kitchen to put on my veil, since men were going to enter our house and it would be wrong for them to see me with my hair uncovered. This saved my life. As my father and neighbour approached the door, the Americans opened fire on them. They died instantly.

"Me and my 13-year-old brother hid in the kitchen behind the fridge. The soldiers came into the house and caught my older sister. They beat her. Then they shot her. But they did not see me. Soon they left, but not before they had destroyed our furniture and stolen the money from my father's pocket."

For those who might not have read about it last year, Fallujah was flattened. Hospitals were taken over by U.S. troops (the Nazzal Emergency Hospital was actually destroyed by U.S. air raids before the November siege began, which the BBC reported), Iraqis fleeing the bombing were shot by snipers, evidence of napalm-like incendiary bombs, banned by the UN 25 years ago, abounds, and Aljazeera reported eye-witness accounts of tanks routinely rolling over wounded Iraqis in the street.
http://www.ottawaxpress.ca/news/highbias.aspx
^
Is this story a democratic process for you?Oh yes, you ignore these kind of stories because to you this war is essential and good for the Iraqi people and Bush is the hero.*sarcasm*

Saddam was a brutal leader...in which it is like that in almost every other Arab country under a dictatorship and authoratarian regime. Iraqi people are saying that they were BETTER under Saddam Hussein as it was not chaotic, and a jihadist haven. It looks like it was more under control under Saddam than Mr. Bush. And what????It is better for you now that Iraqis are dying from American missiles and recruited "jihadists"?

All of this for what????A B.S. democracy?Are the lives of over 1,000 American troops dead and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians worth black oil?

It looks like you are the disillusioned,ignorant one.

[TIES2]

Excuse me?Who are you to talk to me in that manner?

I was born in Kuwait, and my parents both graduated from prominent Iraqi universities where they had a FREE educational system in which they weren't even allowed to attend post-secondary education in Kuwait because of their Palestinian ethnicity.

I have experienced an invasion by Saddam Hussein's regime. We escaped Kuwait because of the Gulf War. I remember the Iraqi tanks rolling up on Kuwaiti beaches.

First off,as for that so-called democratic election process. It is ALL B.S. We all know it was rigged for the fact that in turn an American allied government can be installed. This is exactly what happened to Latin America in the 70s and 80s.

Saddam has killed a lot of people in all of a result because of a civil war. He was a brutal dictator,but let me tell you something...Saddam is just like the other Arab dictators out there who are ALLIES with the U.S. (ex. Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya,etc...) The only reason Saddam is gone is because he was a threat to the imperialist quest of the American government and a threat to them. He was also a threat to the distribution of western oil supply. If Saddam still kissed asses to the American government like the Saudis do and like he did back in the late 80s,he'd STILL be ruling Iraq today with an iron fist. And don't forget that it was with the help of the American government and the CIA that the Baathist regime got to overthrow Iraq's Communist Party in the 60s. And don't forget that Reagan supplied biological weapons to Saddam as he was his best ally in order to fight Iran in which Saddam used these chemical weapons on his own people. Now tell me if you believe that Bush is all for democracy,then why the heck is he allies with one of the most oppressive and brutal regimes,Saudi Arabia???Oh yes, black oil gives you friends with benefits. You think Bush and the U.S. government cares for a true "democracy" in the Middle East?You think that if the Middle East had no natural resources and didn't have Israel (which is an important region for Western interests) and especially black oil,and that if Iraq was in the depths of Africa instead...You think they'd blink an eye to it?

And yes, hundreds and thousands of Iraqis are killed by American troops, air raids,missiles and apache helipcopters. Iraqi civilians are being slaughtered for black oil and some are maimed for the rest of their lives because of a senseless and unjustifiable war. Look at what some of the American troops did in Abu Gharib and other detention centres...Look at how Iraqi children and families are killed because of American missiles dropping in their backyards...Is that democracy to you? How about the FACT that some American troops would storm in Iraqi houses and randomly shoot Iraqis for no apparent reason and then steal their belongings? Is that democracy?Do you EVER hear about their stories on the news? Do you ever see memorial ceremonies for the Iraqis that have died in this war all of for Bush and instead they have to die in vain?Did you ever hear what American troops did in Fallujah last year and how they creamed the city?

Have you heard accounts of stories like these from a 17 year old teenager?

^
Is this story a democratic process for you?Oh yes, you ignore these kind of stories because to you this war is essential and good for the Iraqi people and Bush is the hero.*sarcasm*

Saddam was a brutal leader...in which it is like that in almost every other Arab country under a dictatorship and authoratarian regime. Iraqi people are saying that they were BETTER under Saddam Hussein as it was not chaotic, and a jihadist haven. It looks like it was more under control under Saddam than Mr. Bush. And what????It is better for you now that Iraqis are dying from American missiles and recruited "jihadists"?

All of this for what????A B.S. democracy?Are the lives of over 1,000 American troops dead and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians worth black oil?

It looks like you are the disillusioned,ignorant one.

Now that's a peace loving rant if I ever heard one....I do not mean that in a disparaging way. I understand your vantage point is significantly different than many of the people who post here, myself included. Yet you are pointing the blame where I believe many people of middle eastern backgrounds point the blame -- the imperial policies of the US...so while you and many others may condemn terrorism, there probably exists, if not in your mind, per se, but the minds of many middle easterners, this notion that the US reaped what it sowed on 9/11...and that's were the complicitness factor comes in...it's not so much in what you say, it's in what you do (and I'm not speaking to you personally here).

This little diatribe of yours may belie your true feelings towards America and perhaps Americans...if I read you right our country is nothing but a lying, thieving, cheating, conniving, back-stabbing, self-indulgent, self-serving imperialist pig...

Does that about sum it up?

[PalestinianPride]

Now that's a peace loving rant if I ever heard one....I do not mean that in a disparaging way. I understand your vantage point is significantly different than many of the people who post here, myself included. Yet you are pointing the blame where I believe many people of middle eastern backgrounds point the blame -- the imperial policies of the US...so while you and many others may condemn terrorism, there probably exists, if not in your mind, per se, but the minds of many middle easterners, this notion that the US reaped what it sowed on 9/11...and that's were the complicitness factor comes in...it's not so much in what you say, it's in what you do (and I'm not speaking to you personally here).

This little diatribe of yours may belie your true feelings towards America and perhaps Americans...if I read you right our country is nothing but a lying, thieving, cheating, conniving, back-stabbing, self-indulgent, self-serving imperialist pig...

Does that about sum it up?

First off, where was the mention about 9/11?We are discussing the Iraq war.

I have NOTHING against the American people,why would I? It is the American government that I have a problem with and their imperialist foreign policies.

So excuse me.......Who is to BLAME for the Iraq war?Iraq? Actually, last time I heard, it was the U.S. that did a pre-emptive strike and invaded Iraq to make a "regime change" which is deemed illegal under the laws of International Court. Last time I heard, it was the U.S. of A that made up lies to justify their intentions to invade and make a war with Iraq all for black oil.

What do you expect...for the people in the Middle East to do a little dance and praise the imperialist quest of the U.S. in invading Iraq and making a senseless and unjustifiable war while American apache helicopters, tanks, and missiles are dropping like flies in their backyards?

[TIES2]

From what I understood Heldup to be saying earlier that people who believe in this extreme Islam are not actually Muslims. So it would appear that the statistics that say a certain percentage of Muslims support Bin Laden are clearly wrong. Since it is incompatible for a true Muslim to support Bin Laden they must therefore not be Muslims. So, in fact, there are zero Muslims that support Bin Laden. Eh?


It is also incompatible for a true Muslim (defined here as being one that is true to the Muslim faith) to support equal rights for women, a woman's right to chose; gays rights, gay marriage, stem cell research, and the list goes on...I even read an article by a Muslim American writer questioning whether it was okay, as a Muslim, to celebrate Mother's day (apparently it isn't...). Makes my conservative values look pretty da$% liberal!

[TIES2]

Did you notice the reasons cited for terrorism: Poverty and lack of education, along with a hatred of U.S. policies/influence in the region. Sound familiar? Those items should be listed as ingrediences on how to make a bomb...

In Egypt, people can't afford to get married because the jobs available -- even for those with PhDs -- don't pay well enough to find a place to live. And you wonder why people yearn for extremism as a last resort.

Wanna make people happy? Give 'em food, jobs, affordable housing and don't tell them what to do.

somehow this is the fault of the US Government?

[TIES2]

First off, where was the mention about 9/11?We are discussing the Iraq war.

I have NOTHING against the American people,why would I? It is the American government that I have a problem with and their imperialist foreign policies.

So excuse me.......Who is to BLAME for the Iraq war?Iraq? Actually, last time I heard, it was the U.S. that did a pre-emptive strike and invaded Iraq to make a "regime change" which is deemed illegal under the laws of International Court. Last time I heard, it was the U.S. of A that made up lies to justify their intentions to invade and make a war with Iraq all for black oil.

What do you expect...for the people in the Middle East to do a little dance and praise the imperialist quest of the U.S. in invading Iraq and making a senseless and unjustifiable war while American apache helicopters, tanks, and missiles are dropping like flies in their backyards?

You were discussing the Iraq war...I have been disputing the veracity of the notion of the Muslim majority as peace loving individuals...and discussing the radical elements within Islam that commit acts of terror...such as 9/11, the bombing of the USS Cole, the first World Trade Center Attack, the Madrid Train Bombing, the London Bombings, and the list goes on....

But I am glad to hear you have nothing against the American people...you almost had me fooled there for a moment...

As for your problem with our American government....I'm sorry you feel that way...but isn't it nice to live in a country where you can speak out freely against the government without worrying about being beaten, detained or killed? Isn't it nice to live in a country where you can practice any religion you want? Where carrying a bible or a koran or the torah is not a crime? Isn't it nice to live in a country where woman have equal rights with men? Isn't it nice to live in a country that regardless of what you do no one is going to stone you to death? Or sentence you to gang rape????

Isn't it nice to live in a country that has one of the longest running democracies ever?

So what makes this democracy so great? (And it is great.)

I think what makes this Democracy so great is that everyone has the same chance of succeeding. But no one's going to hand it to you, though -- you'll have to work for it. But with an idea, hard work and a little luck? Who knows...even you can be a great American success story....

But if your goal is to sit here and Bit&* about MY government...please go do it from somewhere else!

[mhafinancial]

But if your goal is to sit here and Bit&* about MY [/U]government...please go do it from somewhere else!
Spoken like a true believer of democracy and freedom of speech. :throwup:

[orthy]

You

but isn't it nice to live in a country where you can speak out freely against the government without worrying about being beaten, detained or killed? Isn't it nice to live in a country where you can practice any religion you want? Where carrying a bible or a koran or the torah is not a crime? Isn't it nice to live in a country where woman have equal rights with men? Isn't it nice to live in a country that regardless of what you do no one is going to stone you to death? Or sentence you to gang rape????


like I said, he's an ungrateful prick.

[pinky]

As for your problem with our American government....I'm sorry you feel that way...but isn't it nice to live in a country where you can speak out freely against the government without worrying about being beaten, detained or killed? Isn't it nice to live in a country where you can practice any religion you want? Where carrying a bible or a koran or the torah is not a crime? Isn't it nice to live in a country where woman have equal rights with men? Isn't it nice to live in a country that regardless of what you do no one is going to stone you to death? Or sentence you to gang rape????

Isn't it nice to live in a country that has one of the longest running democracies ever?

So what makes this democracy so great? (And it is great.)

I think what makes this Democracy so great is that everyone has the same chance of succeeding. But no one's going to hand it to you, though -- you'll have to work for it. But with an idea, hard work and a little luck? Who knows...even you can be a great American success story....

But if your goal is to sit here and Bit&* about MY government...please go do it from somewhere else!
I'm goint to go out on a limb here and say that you're not a Black Muslim woman, are you? :rolleyes:

[HeldUp]

It is also incompatible for a true Muslim (defined here as being one that is true to the Muslim faith) to support equal rights for women, a woman's right to chose; gays rights, gay marriage, stem cell research, and the list goes on...I even read an article by a Muslim American writer questioning whether it was okay, as a Muslim, to celebrate Mother's day (apparently it isn't...). Makes my conservative values look pretty da$% liberal!
From my interpretation as a Muslim male born and raised in California:
1. I support equal rights for all humans, regardless of race, creed, nationality or gender. (http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/gender.html)
2. While Islam may appear to be a "conservative" religion, there is a grey area on the practice of abortion (allowable within the first 40 days of pregnancy, taking into account both the physical AND psychological state of the mother). See Muslim Women's League (http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/sexuality.html)
3. Gays: condemn the act but not the individual but, then again, sexual practices should be private and nobody's business but our own. I have many gay friends who have no problem with my position.
4. Most Muslim medical ethicists say that stem cell research is permitted as it is for the greater good. See Dr. Hassan Hathout (http://islam-usa.com/e113.htm)
5. Mother's Day, while a Hallmark Holiday, is a great way to show appreciation to one's mother. After all, in Islam, the path to paradise is at the feet of the mother. After God, mothers are the most important force in all of our lives. (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/145/story_14548_1.html)

[TIES2]

From my interpretation as a Muslim male born and raised in California:
1. I support equal rights for all humans, regardless of race, creed, nationality or gender. (http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/gender.html)
2. While Islam may appear to be a "conservative" religion, there is a grey area on the practice of abortion (allowable within the first 40 days of pregnancy, taking into account both the physical AND psychological state of the mother). See Muslim Women's League (http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/sexuality.html)
3. Gays: condemn the act but not the individual but, then again, sexual practices should be private and nobody's business but our own. I have many gay friends who have no problem with my position.
4. Most Muslim medical ethicists say that stem cell research is permitted as it is for the greater good. See Dr. Hassan Hathout (http://islam-usa.com/e113.htm)
5. Mother's Day, while a Hallmark Holiday, is a great way to show appreciation to one's mother. After all, in Islam, the path to paradise is at the feet of the mother. After God, mothers are the most important force in all of our lives. (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/145/story_14548_1.html)

(editing for really bad spelling!!! Haste does make waste!)

As a Muslim, you would know, but I can find Muslim positions that refute each of your items above...seriously, I don't pull this stuff out of a hat!!! By the way, I'm sure just as in Christianity there are conservative, moderate and liberal interpretations of Islam -- what I was referencing was a conservative, traditional interpretation...

As for Number 1 -- that's your viewpoint and it is an admirable one....but is it consistent with conservative Muslim thinking?

As for Number 2 -- again see comment on conservative, moderate and liberal interpretations

As for Number 3, the Christian view is the same...hate the sin, not the sinner

As for Number 4 -- what's your point? I assume there are many Medical Ethicists who are also Christian that would say the same thing....again, what's the vantage point: conservative, moderate or liberal????

As for Number 5 -- it just seems strange that there would even need to be a discussion about whether to celebrate Mother's day or not...

I reference in another post that Muslim Americans are seen (by worldwide memebers of the Muslim community) as being far more liberal in their thinking and interpretation of Islam and the Koran than Muslims in Europe or other parts of the world, who tend to hold a more traditional (i.e., conservative) interpretation.

So whose view point is right???? The Conservative? The Moderate? The Liberal? Because within Islam as within Christianity they all exist...

[TIES2]

Spoken like a true believer of democracy and freedom of speech. :throwup:

David, unlike you, I am proud to be an American :devil:

And yes, PP is free to say what he wishes (I acknowledged that Democracy supports and even encourages such things). Conversely, I too am covered by that same freedom of speech. As are you (which is unfortunate, but hey... :love: )

And I am a true believer in democracy -- in true democracy -- not the definition of democracy currently in vogue among liberals -- which is more a socialistic democracy (if I would even call it that).

So, David, please define your version of democracy for me!

[HeldUp]

So whose view point is right???? The Conservative? The Moderate? The Liberal? Because within Islam as within Christianity they all exist...
The Qur'an is described by God to be "for those who think." As in Christianity, there are schools of thought in Islam. Pick the one that best suits your community, your country, yourself. It's not a buffet, so you don't just pick the school that fits your schedule...

[TIES2]

The Qur'an is described by God to be "for those who think." As in Christianity, there are schools of thought in Islam. Pick the one that best suits your community, your country, yourself. It's not a buffet, so you don't just pick the school that fits your schedule...


Soooo....what are you saying? That all these "schools of thought" are valid? I would agree that any single point on the continuum within your "schools of thought" is valid to the group of individuals who share that particular point on the continuum.

I would be less sure that other groups along the continuum would consider other vantage points valid....that's not to say they aren't, I just think if you gather together individuals from all the "schools of thought," the interpretations of what's valid and what isn't would be as numerous as the points on the continuum....

Perhaps I do not understand your last comment, but if there are many "schools of thought" and all are valid, then it is a buffet as you can simply pick and choose which ones are valid for you, your community and your country.

I assume there is only one Koran just like there is only one Bible (regardless of how many versions, i.e., King James, New International, etc.)-- so, regardless, the varying "schools of thought" all result from interpretation of the same scripture.

[HeldUp]

Interpretation of the Qur'an is the key, but the authenticated hadith (the sayings and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) are also part of Islamic dogma.

While all Muslims are quite clear on the Five Pillars of Islam (Shahada* or Declaration of faith, Fasting during Ramadan, Almsgiving, five daily prayers, pilgrimmage to Mecca once during lifetime), there are other areas, such the schools of thought, that overlap and/or contradict each other. Some trust in the hadiths, some trust in controversial or unauthenticated hadiths, some use strictly the Qur'an as their guide.

As for the buffet, let me uncontradict myself. Many think you should follow all the "beliefs" (for lack of a better word) of one school, but using the Qur'an ("for those who think") and authenticated hadiths as your guide, you really don't need a school of thought.

*"There is no God but God and Muhammad is his final messenger"

[Incident]

2. While Islam may appear to be a "conservative" religion, there is a grey area on the practice of abortion (allowable within the first 40 days of pregnancy, taking into account both the physical AND psychological state of the mother). See Muslim Women's League (http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/sexuality.html)
.... (http://www.beliefnet.com/story/145/story_14548_1.html)

From your link


Abortion

Abortion is viewed in the same context as having relevance only regarding pregnancies occurring in marriage, again, not as a response to conception as a result of extra- or premarital relationships. Early Muslim jurists considered abortion lawful for a variety of reasons until 40 -120 days after conception (first trimester). This was based on interpretation of Qur'an (22:4 and 23:12-14) and hadith that implied that ensoulment or "life" did not exist until after that time (see Sex and Society in Islam, B.F. Musallam, Cambridge University Press, 1983). Contemporary thinkers, considering available technology that allows visualization of the embryonic heartbeat at four weeks of gestation, are of the position that life begins much earlier than previously thought, and therefore to terminate would be to take a life illegally.

The majority of Muslims today believe that abortion is allowed only if the mother's life is significantly endangered by the pregnancy. Some also feel that the presence of certain congenital anomalies (particularly those that are lethal) make abortion lawful. Also, some scholars consider abortion appropriate in pregnancies resulting from rape or incest.



Where is the part in here about psychological state of the mother as you claimed?

From what I am reading here is that Muslims believe essentially the same thing as George Bush believes. I would think that a Muslim would be horrified by what Roe v Wade and its companion ruling Doe v Bolton signify. That a woman can have an abortion for any reason at anytime during her pregnancy. I would think that Muslim's would demand that these rulings be overturned.

[Richard Tafoya]

More specifically, it's laid out here as well:
http://www.islamatschool.org.uk/GC/GCSETopicsPages/Abortion.htm
Islamic Teaching :

The Qur'an clearly condemns both the killing of born and unborn children. The first quote is actually a celebration of God creating life, forming an embryo a short time ( a matter of days) after its conception.

However, Muslim scholars agree that the foetus becomes a human being after 120 days of conception. According to them, the whole period of pregnancy can be divided into two stages: the first 120 days, and the remaining period before childbirth. Most traditional Muslim jurists claim that it is permissible to have an abortion for valid reasons during the first stage. This is largely based on this famous Hadith:

The Prophet (pbuh) said, "Each of you is constituted in your mother's womb for forty days as a nutfah, then it becomes an 'alaqah for an equal period, then a mudghah for another equal period, then the angel is sent and he breathes the soul into it."

A modern Muslim female writer puts it like this:
In Islam abortions are encouraged only if the pregnancy threatens the well-being of the mother. It is forbidden to sacrifice the mother's life for the fetus. Here again the practice of abortion is prescribed with limitations. The soul in the Islamic tradition develops after the fetus moves in the womb. The distinction between movement and life in Islam is very clear. The fetus moves, during the second trimester (precisely after 120 days of pregnancy). Abortion, as a result, is permitted during the first 120 days, i.e. before the soul develops. (By Nawal H. Ammar, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Kent State University/Trumbull. See http://www.consultation.org/consultation/ammar.htm#population)

[Incident]

What is your point? This is just a more detailed explanation of one of the views in the link HeldUp posted. This view is much closer to the belief of George Bush than the beliefs of those who support Roe v Wade

[HeldUp]

I personally do not support abortion, as do the majority of Muslims. My point is that there is enough grey area (and confusion due to the lack of authenticity of some hadiths) that Islam allows for one to interpret for themselves. Again, this is not the majority opinion, but the validation has on several occasions interpreted "well-being" by some to include mental health.

That said, I would say that most women find out they are officially pregnant after 40 days (technically, starting with the last day of her last known period), so the point is moot.

For the record, in no way did I state that Islam allows for abortion on demand.

May God forgive me if I mispoke in any way.

[HeldUp]

From the Muslim Women's League essay, "Sex and Sexuality in Islam" (http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/essays/sexuality.html) (see last paragraph)

In the name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful
Abortion

Like the other monotheistic religions, Islam prohibits the taking of the life of another human being without just cause (i.e. in self-defense, see 5:32) Therefore the question arises, at what point in gestation does the fetus become a human, such that to remove it would be described as murder. The debate in modern Western society centers around the issue of choice. Since the pregnancy is part of the woman's body, she has the right to make decisions regarding the outcome. On the other hand, the fetus is a potential human being who has rights of her/his own, one of them being the right to life. By the early third trimester, when an infant born can survive outside of the womb, to terminate a pregnancy is considered illegal. Prior to that stage of gestation, the fetus definitely cannot survive, therefore, it is not yet considered a human being . Others believe that the fetus's status as a human begins at conception.

The Qur'an describes the stages of embryonic development (22:4, 23:12-14) and states that at a certain point during development, the fetus is given a soul. According to the jurists and their interpretation of a related hadith, the ensoulment occurs somewhere between 40 and 120 days of gestation (Musallam, p.53-4). Based on these references all of the major jurists agreed that the fetus did not become endowed with a human spirit until at least 40 days of gestation had occurred. Some felt that this did not occur until 120 days of gestation. In reviewing historical documents of Medieval Islamic jurists, Musallam argues that abortion was considered a form of birth control which was essentially allowed by all of the major juristic positions (p.69).

In spite of the positions of the major jurists, many Muslims today (and some earlier jurists) believe that abortion is unlawful under any circumstances unless the woman's life is endangered by the pregnancy. Modern technology (not available to early jurists) enables the physician to see the beating heart of a 21 day old embryo; whether the embryo qualifies as a person is really only known by God. Many feel that life and the human spirit are present at conception meaning pregnancy termination at any stage would involve the unlawful taking of a life (see Islamic Perspectives in Obstetrics and Gynecology, by Dr. Hassan Hathout, pp. 61-78 ). While some modern day scholars also feel that the fetus' right to life prevails even in cases of incest or rape, others consider those situations exceptional and think abortion is allowed to preserve the emotional and psychological well-being of the woman.

As mentioned above, some Muslim scholars have interpreted the Qur'an and Hadith as explaining when the fetus becomes a human being (between 40 and 120 days of gestation) therefore, termination would be lawful during that time. The appropriate circumstances for termination would then be considered. Today, women often terminate pregnancy because they are sexually active and not yet married; pregnancy in those circumstances is undesirable for many reasons. If individuals avoid extramarital sex, they would not be faced with making such a difficult decision. For married couples, unwanted pregnancy most often occurs as a result of contraception failure. According to the jurists cited in Musallam, (namely Hanafi, Shafi'i) abortion is permissible if the parents fear hardship, physical, psychological or other. Economic justification is generally not considered sufficient since the Qur'an says "Do not kill your children for fear of want."(6:151) even though this verse is referring to living children.

[PalestinianPride]

You were discussing the Iraq war...I have been disputing the veracity of the notion of the Muslim majority as peace loving individuals...and discussing the radical elements within Islam that commit acts of terror...such as 9/11, the bombing of the USS Cole, the first World Trade Center Attack, the Madrid Train Bombing, the London Bombings, and the list goes on....

But I am glad to hear you have nothing against the American people...you almost had me fooled there for a moment...

As for your problem with our American government....I'm sorry you feel that way...but isn't it nice to live in a country where you can speak out freely against the government without worrying about being beaten, detained or killed? Isn't it nice to live in a country where you can practice any religion you want? Where carrying a bible or a koran or the torah is not a crime? Isn't it nice to live in a country where woman have equal rights with men? Isn't it nice to live in a country that regardless of what you do no one is going to stone you to death? Or sentence you to gang rape????

Isn't it nice to live in a country that has one of the longest running democracies ever?

So what makes this democracy so great? (And it is great.)

I think what makes this Democracy so great is that everyone has the same chance of succeeding. But no one's going to hand it to you, though -- you'll have to work for it. But with an idea, hard work and a little luck? Who knows...even you can be a great American success story....

But if your goal is to sit here and Bit&* about MY government...please go do it from somewhere else!

I live in Canada.

Why would I have anything against the American people, or I can say Chinese people or even Saudi Arabian people? Yes, I do not like the American government, or the Chinese or the Saudi Arabian government for example. I dislike the policies of these governments so why would I hate the people of that nation? The people of that country and the government are two entirely different things. So,you did not like Saddam's regime, does that mean you hated the Iraqi people?

Of course it is so good to live in a democratic country. Afterall, my family escaped the Gulf War from Saddam's invasion of Kuwait so we can have a better life and live in a free country. But you see, I am not criticizing the basic principles of democracy practiced in these western countries. But life to some is good in a democratic state.

What I am critizing is the foreign policies of the U.S. government.So,why are you bringing up how to you living in a democratic society is so good for you?What does that have to do with the brutal and oppressive fashion that these superpower,western governments exercise on other countries? What does that have to do with the fact that these superpower countries go ahead and take advantage of other people for their natural resources like black oil?What does that have to do with the fact that the hegemony of this world goes ahead with a pre-emptive strike and makes a war based on ludicrous and falicious lies?It is what these superpower countries do to those who have a lesser advantage to having a better life in these countries.

For example,this can be said the same for Great Britain back in the 19th century when they were on a quest to colonize others and use them as slaves and oppress them .They thought it was the "white man's burden" and that it was their job to go ahead and shove their morals and principles down their throats because they were superior and the others were inferior, barbaric and primitive. Since the beginning of time, that is what superpowers have done. In this day and age,you can replace Great Britain with the U.S. and it is the same ol' sh*t.

And as for criticizing your government, I am using freedom of speech of the democracy you are so proud of and will critique as I please. And I will because I will tell it like I see it.

[PalestinianPride]

like I said, he's an ungrateful prick.

It is a SHE by the way.

How resourceful of you that instead of replying back to my post with valid points and in a respectful manner,you go ahead and call me an ungrateful prick. This undervalues your arguments and lessens the efficacity of your statements. Thank you for proving to us your lack of intelligence and showing off your pompous,ignorant self and immaturity. Keep making yourself look like a fool,it only enlightens me and makes me look like the smart and mature one. :)

[murphy]

And thanks for the gender clarification you ungrateful c%nt.

My Laugh for the day Orthy!! :laugh: :roll: :hah: :funny:

[TIES2]

I live in Canada.

Why would I have anything against the American people, or I can say Chinese people or even Saudi Arabian people? Yes, I do not like the American government, or the Chinese or the Saudi Arabian government for example. I dislike the policies of these governments so why would I hate the people of that nation? The people of that country and the government are two entirely different things. So,you did not like Saddam's regime, does that mean you hated the Iraqi people?

Of course it is so good to live in a democratic country. Afterall, my family escaped the Gulf War from Saddam's invasion of Kuwait so we can have a better life and live in a free country. But you see, I am not criticizing the basic principles of democracy practiced in these western countries. But life to some is good in a democratic state.

What I am critizing is the foreign policies of the U.S. government.So,why are you bringing up how to you living in a democratic society is so good for you?What does that have to do with the brutal and oppressive fashion that these superpower,western governments exercise on other countries? What does that have to do with the fact that these superpower countries go ahead and take advantage of other people for their natural resources like black oil?What does that have to do with the fact that the hegemony of this world goes ahead with a pre-emptive strike and makes a war based on ludicrous and falicious lies? It is what these superpower countries do to those who have a lesser advantage to having a better life in these countries.

For example,this can be said the same for Great Britain back in the 19th century when they were on a quest to colonize others and use them as slaves and oppress them .They thought it was the "white man's burden" and that it was their job to go ahead and shove their morals and principles down their throats because they were superior and the others were inferior, barbaric and primitive. Since the beginning of time, that is what superpowers have done. In this day and age,you can replace Great Britain with the U.S. and it is the same ol' sh*t.

And as for criticizing your government, I am using freedom of speech of the democracy you are so proud of and will critique as I please. And I will because I will tell it like I see it.


Last time I checked the American Government was still comprised of elected officials, Americans all...so it strikes me as odd that you separate the government from the governed...

And I do not deny you your right to freedom of speech -- it is, afterall, a hallmark of American democracy. Nor do I deny or criticize you for your vantage point....I would not expect you to share my viewpoint....conversely, you cannot expect me to share yours...

However, your vitriolic comments againt the American government, specifically its foreign policy, is probably a shared sentiment among many individuals in the Middle East and of middle eastern background (that would certainly account for the roughly less than 30% positive view of the US in that region of the world). Despite how well I might understand the genesis for this thinking, it is, nonetheless, far from peace-loving. Indeed, one can easily see how such thinking could and does contribute toward a culture of hate.

And these are not new attitudes. They are deeply rooted and have been festering for quite some time. Sure, some like to blame it on Iraq. But even if the US disengaged from Iraq, this sentiment would still be prevalent in this region. Hence the problem would still exist.

I read a Pew Research document that showed in the month after 9/11, the number of Americans citing a positive view of Muslims increased by almost 20%.

How could that be? That would seem to be in direct opposition to human nature.

I can guarantee you that the attitude towards the US within the middle east and the muslim community did not spike (at least not in a favorable direction) within a month of the US war in Iraq. Perhaps that's because the Middle Eastern press and Muslim groups denounced the war as well as American policy, whereas the American press continually paints this picture of muslims as peace loving individuals. Islam is a peace loving religion yet there are these terrorists who commit acts of terror in the name of Islam...this is difficult for many people to reconcile...and the emphasis on the peace loving majority only deflects emphasis on the radical hatred filled minority....

Throw into that mix our rampant national compunction for PC, where it is simply taboo to offend anyone, ever, and you can see why it is next to impossible for this country (as well as most European countries) to have a serious discussion that not only defines the problem but the steps that need to be taken to solve the problem. And the problem is Islamic terrorism.

[HeldUp]

This turned out to be one wild thread! I hope BruceNut is satisfied...;)

[HeldUp]

Islam is a peace loving religion yet there are these terrorists who commit acts of terror in the name of Islam...this is difficult for many people to reconcile...
I understand. It's like a murderer or drug pusher coming from the same family as a doctor, lawyer, and a minister. Same peace-loving parents, same parenting, same rules. The parents can't explain it, the good kids can't explain it, the neighbors can't explain it. All it take is just one bad egg to spoil the whole bunch.

[PalestinianPride]

Last time I checked the American Government was still comprised of elected officials, Americans all...so it strikes me as odd that you separate the government from the governed...

And I do not deny you your right to freedom of speech -- it is, afterall, a hallmark of American democracy. Nor do I deny or criticize you for your vantage point....I would not expect you to share my viewpoint....conversely, you cannot expect me to share yours...

However, your vitriolic comments againt the American government, specifically its foreign policy, is probably a shared sentiment among many individuals in the Middle East and of middle eastern background (that would certainly account for the roughly less than 30% positive view of the US in that region of the world). Despite how well I might understand the genesis for this thinking, it is, nonetheless, far from peace-loving. Indeed, one can easily see how such thinking could and does contribute toward a culture of hate.

And these are not new attitudes. They are deeply rooted and have been festering for quite some time. Sure, some like to blame it on Iraq. But even if the US disengaged from Iraq, this sentiment would still be prevalent in this region. Hence the problem would still exist.

I read a Pew Research document that showed in the month after 9/11, the number of Americans citing a positive view of Muslims increased by almost 20%.

How could that be? That would seem to be in direct opposition to human nature.

I can guarantee you that the attitude towards the US within the middle east and the muslim community did not spike (at least not in a favorable direction) within a month of the US war in Iraq. Perhaps that's because the Middle Eastern press and Muslim groups denounced the war as well as American policy, whereas the American press continually paints this picture of muslims as peace loving individuals. Islam is a peace loving religion yet there are these terrorists who commit acts of terror in the name of Islam...this is difficult for many people to reconcile...and the emphasis on the peace loving majority only deflects emphasis on the radical hatred filled minority....

Throw into that mix our rampant national compunction for PC, where it is simply taboo to offend anyone, ever, and you can see why it is next to impossible for this country (as well as most European countries) to have a serious discussion that not only defines the problem but the steps that need to be taken to solve the problem. And the problem is Islamic terrorism.

People in the Middle East dislike the American foreign policies for obvious and clear reasons. They just did not wake up one day and say,hey let me hate the American government today.

And what is your point?Extremists in every single religion commit crimes in the name of their religion. There will ALWAYS be a census in which people will commit crimes in the name of even anything. People have commited crimes in the name of their race, their ethnicities,their religion,their families,etc...

You know what?If anything...The West and the majority of its nations are the least to be threatened or even attacked by terrorism. Let's remember that the West (ex.U.S.,Britain) has its fair share of uing excessive force and terrorist actions against other countries. In the world, 40% of terrorist actions happen in India,and Iraq is a close second with 30%. The Middle East and in its country is dealing with terrorism and and in Africa there is terrorism where they are dealing with so many issues and civil strife. As I see it, the Western countries are protected from terrorism a heck lot better and more than countries in the other hemisphere.

[HeldUp]

Nearly every year prior to 9/11, the clear majority of terrorist acts occurred in Colombia with the FARC. Even now, the Iraqi insurgent attacks against armed forces aren't classified as terrorism.

[TIES2]

Nearly every year prior to 9/11, the clear majority of terrorist acts occurred in Colombia with the FARC. Even now, the Iraqi insurgent attacks against armed forces aren't classified as terrorism.


That's because no one wants to use the word....it's not PC or sensitive enough in that liberal you're ok, I'm ok sort of way!
What do we call them?? Oh, yeah...Insurgents. Here's the definition of Insurgent from Webster's online....

1 : a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent

A rebel not recognized as a belligerent???? Who are we kidding?????? What does one have to do to become a belligerent, or a terrorist??????

2 : one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party

Based on this definition one could easily argue that we have many "insurgents" (if not belligerents) in both our Republican and Democratic parties. :eek:

We should stop the semantics charade...

[HeldUp]

We should stop the semantics charade...
I agree. But I'm not the one who determines dictionary definitions or government taxonomy. A terrorist targets civilians as well as military personnel.

[TIES2]

People in the Middle East dislike the American foreign policies for obvious and clear reasons. They just did not wake up one day and say,hey let me hate the American government today.

And what is your point?Extremists in every single religion commit crimes in the name of their religion. There will ALWAYS be a census in which people will commit crimes in the name of even anything. People have commited crimes in the name of their race, their ethnicities,their religion,their families,etc...(all in the same country, too!)

You know what?If anything...The West and the majority of its nations are the least to be threatened or even attacked by terrorism. Let's remember that the West (ex.U.S.,Britain) has its fair share of uing excessive force and terrorist actions against other countries. In the world, 40% of terrorist actions happen in India,and Iraq is a close second with 30%. The Middle East and in its country is dealing with terrorism and and in Africa there is terrorism where they are dealing with so many issues and civil strife. As I see it, the Western countries are protected from terrorism a heck lot better and more than countries in the other hemisphere.

Yes, thank you, and we'd like to keep it that way....

But that's a bit of a snide answer and I don't mean to be rude (truly, I don't).

Perhaps rather than respond sarcastically, I should see it for what it could be, an opportunity to open a door for dialogue...so here goes....Why do you think the West is better protected? After all, on the one hand our democracy and freedoms (and open door policy) put us in an awkward position when it comes to defending and safeguarding the rights of our increasingly diverse population...yet on the other hand, we don't want to become restrictive wherein open doors suddenly close...I see it as a bit of a conundrum...and while we (the West) have perhaps seen less terrorism than other nations, it could be that change is on the way....is the recent string of terrorism a harbinger of things to come? I'd be curious as to your thoughts....

And by the way, I even understand why people from the middle east may hate the American government. And as you pointed out, the feelings have been incubating for years and years and years....consequently, just like none woke up and said "hey, let's hate the American government," it's unlikely any will wake up one day and say "Hey, let's put an end to all this nonsense."

Changing attitudes and viewpoints take time....and nurturing...the West seems to be doing a better job of selling the nurture...and that's one of my points. But the nurture being sold and which we all seem too eager to gobble up, may not truly reflect reality (And I understand that). So while we are being conditioned to think one way; middle easterners, perhaps, are being conditioned to think contrary to what we're being told...and there's danger in that for both sides....

[Flory Days]

Flory, I am disappointed in you...my point all along has not been whether the muslim majority is peace loving or not, but rather the length to which the media has gone to tell me this in that pat, pc way they have! They're messing with your mind...

But isn't it a little simplistic to assume that because only 15-20% support bin-Laden that the rest, by default, are peace loving????? You're probably right, but your logic is no better than Orthy's!!!!!!

It's like saying since only x% support Bush then y% must be democrats... :scratch:

Anyway, I hope you have a wonderful vacation.....I get warmth and ridicule from Ties all in the same post.

Thank you for your hope for my wonderful vacation, but if my logic is no better than orthy's, then its time to hang it up and retire from political thread posting. ;) :biggrin:

[TIES2]

noticed you posting on the other side, but missed you here...glad you had a nice vacation...

now, where were we????

[Flory Days]

The other side? Oh, that's why we're here, no?

When I spend more time here than there, I know I am in trouble. Like Bruce, I had to recenter, refocus and get a sense of connection. Now that I've done that why would I want to come back here? :)

especially with David not here to back me up. :D

[TIES2]

The other side? Oh, that's why we're here, no?

When I spend more time here than there, I know I am in trouble. Like Bruce, I had to recenter, refocus and get a sense of connection. Now that I've done that why would I want to come back here? :)

especially with David not here to back me up. :D

chicken!!!!!!!!!!! You don't need David! You can hold your own quite well!

Besides, it's infinitely more interesting here than there. Who wants to spend their days debating the color of Bruce's shirt or whether it was the same one he wore when he played this venue or that venue months or years ago????

The man's a musical genius....I was completely engrossed during the recent show I went to...2-1/2 hours never passed so quick. I was heartbroken to hear I missed the live debut of "Two for the Road," a definite favorite of mine, but I don't need to go on and on wondering why he chose that evening and venue to play the song...

It's all good!