DNC Chair Dean Declares: 'Women Will Be Worse Off In Iraq Than They Were When Saddam

[kdrago]

http://www.washtimes.com/national/inpolitics.htm

Inside Politics
By Greg Pierce
August 15, 2005


Dean's latest
Howard Dean, the Democratic National Committee chairman who was the hero of his party's anti-war wing before his gaffe-prone 2004 presidential candidacy crashed and burned in Iowa, still doesn't think the Iraqis are better off with dictator Saddam Hussein out of power and in prison.
Appearing on CBS' "Face the Nation" yesterday, the fiery former Vermont governor said, "It looks like today, and this could change, as of today it looks like women will be worse off in Iraq than they were when Saddam Hussein was president of Iraq."
Mr. Dean was the guy who said right after Saddam was found hiding in a "spider hole" that his capture by U.S. troops "has not made America safer," a statement ridiculed and condemned by most of his Democratic rivals at the time.
In a brief statement yesterday, the Republican National Committee said, "Dean's wild assertion that Iraqi women would be better off living under Saddam Hussein than democracy is not only counterproductive to meaningful debate, it demeans the hard work of American servicemen and women serving in Iraq."

[pinky]

If the new Iraqi constitution doesn't protect the equality of women, and a theocracy that adopts strict sharia law ensues, Dean will be proven correct.

Again.

[TIES2]

If the new Iraqi constitution doesn't protect the equality of women, and a theocracy that adopts strict sharia law ensues, Dean will be proven correct.

Again.


I actually agree with pinky on this one...uh-oh...let me qualify myself...I agree on the part about adoption in Iraq of strict sharia law (which is the 11th hour wrench the shi-ites threw into the ring late last week). That would not bode well for woman.

Now the part about Dean...pinky would need to prove that this was a probable outcome that Dean stated as a reason why we should not get embroiled in a war in Iraq...the I would claim him a man of brilliant foresight :p

Unfortunately he probably read it in the paper last week like the rest of us!

[pinky]

Nope, I was referring to the part about his saying, correctly, that the capture of Saddam has not made us safer.

[TIES2]

Yes, but he also said, on several occassions, that we cannot leave Iraq either...the man was oppossed to the war from the beginning. That's no secret, but one has to look at his alternative solution....which was pretty much of the same -- sanctions and talk. Yet sanctions and talk don't always get you want or need either. Just last week, Iran basically said to "He$$ with your words, watch what I do." So where does that leave the talkers????? Whether you're dropping bombs or levying sanctions the end result is pretty much the same with regard to mind share. Would the Iraqis have loved us more if we simply starved them to death? Would Al-quada been any less aggressive (because in their eyes I believe there's absolutely no difference between talk and big guns). So I disagree that Dean was proven right, again. The process is not yet over to determine whether or not we are safer. Let's watch and see what Iran does and then maybe we will have our answer on how effective diplomacy and sanctions would have been. Because while the world is sitting there telling Iran, No, No, No, they are getting stronger by the minute. Sanctions won't make them look any more kindly on us or the West.

[Paulie]

Well, we can only hope that the women of Iraq are treated better in their constitution than women were in our constitution when it was drafted and ratified.

Paulie

[TIES2]

Well, we can only hope that the women of Iraq are treated better in their constitution than women were in our constitution when it was drafted and ratified.

Paulie


Egads! Please don't tell me you're one of those people who hang their heads in shame every time someone mentions the history of this great country.... please just tell me you're trying to be funny!

[Paulie]

Egads! Please don't tell me you're one of those people who hang their heads in shame every time someone mentions the history of this great country.... please just tell me you're trying to be funny!

No, not at all. But you have to admit there have been some shameful parts of our past: slavery, wiping out almost all Native American cultures, and the legal status of women for well over one hundred years. They were practically chattel, unable to vote, barred from owning land in many states, having very few if any rights. It's not something we should be proud of.

Every country makes mistakes, including the U.S. I'm hoping that Iraq doesn't make this same mistake, and gives women equal status with men.

Paulie

[TIES2]

No, not at all. But you have to admit there have been some shameful parts of our past: slavery, wiping out almost all Native American cultures, and the legal status of women for well over one hundred years. They were practically chattel, unable to vote, barred from owning land in many states, having very few if any rights. It's not something we should be proud of.

Every country makes mistakes, including the U.S. I'm hoping that Iraq doesn't make this same mistake, and gives women equal status with men.

Paulie


You are right. Our past has not been perfect. But the reality is that these things you mention are not unique to America (assuming one can replace American Indians with any native population). I read somewhere that America did not invent slavery, it ended it. Women, more or less, now enjoy equality with men. But it is our history and you can't change it. I do not apologize for the lack of foresight of our founding fathers concerning the rights of women. They acted in ways consistent with the mores of the time and laid a foundation upon which future changes could be made. They should not be discredited. And charges that Columbus was a murderous barbarian...I really don't know what to make of that. My understanding from school is that there were peaceful interactions and less than peaceful interactions...just as some slave owners treated their slaves kindly and with respect whereas others did not.

Now as for the woman of Iraq...first, I find it interesting that news accounts claim the issue is women's rights. Which is correct, per se, but the real issue is Sharia law (few want to actually say it), which is an integral part of Islam. In Islam you cannot have an Islamic state without sharia law...the two are inseparable. The church and state are one. And that's a problem. And not just for the people of Iraq trying to work out the constitution. What do you think all the fuss is about? What do you think the corrupt regimes are that Osama Bin Laden references? It's any Muslim country that does not have Sharia law. Muslim countries that do not have Sharia law are consorting with the infidels. the leaders are considered Apostates. That's why you have bombs going off within Muslim countries like Saudia Arabia. The resurgence of Islam is also the resurgence of Sharia law...and long term that's a problem for all of us...

[pinky]

And yet, if the people of Iraq vote for a theocracy, and implement sharia through democratic processes, is that not a direct result of our interference?

[TIES2]

And yet, if the people of Iraq vote for a theocracy, and implement sharia through democratic processes, is that not a direct result of our interference?

Yup, definitely don't disagree with you on that...it ain't your plain vanilla democracy, for sure. I guess what puzzles me the most is how they missed it...or did they really miss it (did the powers that be know all along this was going to be the outcome?). Frankly, I think they made a significant miscalculation on the various factions (Kurds, Sunnis and Shi-ites each wanting their own independent piece of the pie). Yet, the shi-ites are the majority and the Sunnis were closer to the Bathists (sp?), therefore closer to Saddam, so who were they wanting to prop up, the Kurds?

I'd say they had a plan in mind and it back fired. It doesn't necessarily mean the plan wasn't valid (though it certainly could mean that), apparentlty it hasn't materialized in the way it was envisioned...that's were the miscalc comes in.

But, hey, what do I know...I am still of the opinion that the Devil we knew (Saddam) needed to go (his long term prognosis for stability was not good, even if he did not live forever there was a good chance his sons would be around for a long, long time); I just don't think anyone had a real clear picture of the devil that appears to be emerging. I've done some looking (very limited at this juncture), and cannot find anything suggestive of how it's currently panning out. Meaning Howard Dean did not foresee this exact path. John Kerry did not see it. Nor did Hillary. I know I'm only listing Libs here but I can't find any Republicans either who looked through the crystal ball and saw this. I think this was pretty much missed across the board(again, I have not really had the time to do a lot of digging...perhaps you have and can cite some sources to the contrary?)

Since I agree with you, I hate to bring this up as I'm afraid you'll view it as snide...

But perhaps we were limited in our capacity to properly diagnosethe situation due to our continual couching of the Islamic fundamentalism issue as the province of the deranged few...Perhaps it's a bit more widespread than that...

While I am changing my mind on Iraq as well as the overall terrorist situation, what I'm definitely not doing, however, is moving more toward the left. I may nudge toward the center but I will not cross that line. There is far too much on the left that I don't agree with.

[pinky]

Fair enough. The center isn't a bad place to be, as it tends to be where one can view both sides objectively.

[mhafinancial]

Women of the New Iraq

By Haifa Zangana, August 16, 2005.

The war on Iraq has not only made the country and world less safe, it has erased the social and political rights of women who were the most liberated in the Middle East.

A group of Iraqi women recently met the U.S. ambassador in an effort to push the framers of Iraq's constitution not to limit women's rights. Many Western feminist groups and some Iraqi women activists fear Islamic law, which if enshrined as a main source of legislation will be used to restrict their rights, specifically in matters relating to marriage, divorce and inheritance. The U.S. shares this concern; Iraqi women more generally do not. Why?

Most Iraqi women recognize, and try to sensitively cope with, the predicament of dealing with occupation and the rise of reactionary practices affecting their rights and way of life. This applies across the political and social class spectrum, for the secular left as much as for moderate Islamists and nationalists. They also feel that writing the constitution is not their priority for the time being. Iraqi women believe that it is important for the people concerned to be able to think clearly, to think of the future when writing such a crucial document. In order to do this, they must be liberated from immediate fears and be able to enjoy basic human rights, such as walking safely in the streets of their city.

Iraqi women do not enjoy these privileges.

Despite all the rhetoric about "building a new democracy,” Iraqis are buckled under the burdens of abuse and plunder committed by members of the U.S.-led occupation force and its local Iraqi sub-contractors. Daily life for most Iraqis is still a struggle for survival, with tragedies and atrocities engulfing them.

Human rights under occupation have proven to be a mirage similar to weapons of mass destruction. Torture and ill-treatment of members of political and armed groups, even the torture of children held in adult facilities, is widespread. Depleted uranium and other banned weapons have been used against various Iraqi cities by American and British troops, weapons including the MK-77 incendiary bomb, a modern form of napalm.

Iraqi women were long the most liberated in the Middle East. Occupation has confined them to their homes. A typical Iraqi woman's day begins with the struggle to get the basics: electricity, petrol or a cylinder of gas, fresh water, food and medication. It ends with a sigh of relief for surviving death threats and violent attacks. For a majority of Iraqi women, simply venturing into the streets harbors the possibility of attack or kidnapping for profit or revenge. Young girls are sold to neighboring countries for prostitution.

[mhafinancial]

http://home.nyc.rr.com/tooney/raja.jpg
On March 12, 2004 celebrating "global women's human rights":

PRESIDENT BUSH: I want to thank my friend, Dr. Raja Khuzai, who's with us today. This is the third time we have met. The first time we met, she walked into the Oval Office -- let's see, was it the first time? It was the first time. The door opened up. She said, "My liberator," and burst out in tears -- (laughter) -- and so did I. (Applause.)

Dr. Khuzai also was there to have Thanksgiving dinner with our troops. And it turned out to be me, as well. Of course, I didn't tell her I was coming. (Laughter.) But I appreciate that, and now she's here again. I want to thank you, Doctor, for your hard work on the writing of the basic law for your people. You have stood fast, you have stood strong. Like me, you've got liberty etched in your heart, and you're not going to yield. And you are doing a great job and we're proud to have you back. Thanks for coming. (Applause.)

Dr. Raja Kuzai August 23, 2005:
"This is the future of the new Iraqi government - it will be in the hands of the clerics," said Dr. Raja Kuzai, a secular Shiite member of the Assembly. "I wanted Iraqi women to be free, to be able to talk freely and to able to move around."

"I am not going to stay here," said Dr. Kuzai, an obstetrician and women's leader who met President Bush in the White House in November 2003.

[mhafinancial]

As usual, no response from k-y-jelly-ago, who posts a thread, gets responses, and is never heard from again.

[TIES2]

Let's see, 8-9 hours on the job each weekday, sometimes weekends too, cooking dinner, supervising baths and homework, playing chauffer, trying to keep the pet hair to a minimum so I don't mistake the hardwood floors for wall-to-wall carpeting, and generally be exhausted most days....yeah, I'm feeling really liberated!

Thanks Gloria! Thanks Betty! I just hope I never meet up with either of you in some dark alley or lonely side street!

[mhafinancial]

Let's see, 8-9 hours on the job each weekday, sometimes weekends too, cooking dinner, supervising baths and homework, playing chauffer, trying to keep the pet hair to a minimum so I don't mistake the hardwood floors for wall-to-wall carpeting, and generally be exhausted most days....yeah, I'm feeling really liberated!

Thanks Gloria! Thanks Betty! I just hope I never meet up with either of you in some dark alley or lonely side street!

Ties....are you....are you a .... are you a... girl????

[TIES2]

Ties....are you....are you a .... are you a... girl????

;) Apparently just posting a message consisting of a wink violates board rules, but it does weaken the response.

[mhafinancial]

;) Apparently just posting a message consisting of a wink violates board rules, but it does weaken the response.
Here all along I figured you purely as a right-of-center gomer, but all along you have simply been flirting. :roll:

[pinky]

;) Apparently just posting a message consisting of a wink violates board rules, but it does weaken the response.
You can do it with a : wink : rather than a ; ) (leave out the spaces, of course).

Plus you get the bonus of an action wink: :wink:

[TIES2]

Here all along I figured you purely as a right-of-center gomer, but all along you have simply been flirting. :roll:

a gomer???? a gomer???? Well, I have never....

[Redrocks]

Let's see, 8-9 hours on the job each weekday, sometimes weekends too, cooking dinner, supervising baths and homework, playing chauffer, trying to keep the pet hair to a minimum so I don't mistake the hardwood floors for wall-to-wall carpeting, and generally be exhausted most days....yeah, I'm feeling really liberated!

Thanks Gloria! Thanks Betty! I just hope I never meet up with either of you in some dark alley or lonely side street!

Aw, stop your belly achin. That sounds like my life, except I'm still up doing work for my clients and posting to this little oasis -- and I'm not a girl. So life ain't necessarily so grand on the opposite side of the gender divide when you fall in love with a real progressive who takes this equality thing to mean really equal. But, all in all, it's been pretty grand.

[Flory Days]

Aw, stop your belly achin. That sounds like my life, except I'm still up doing work for my clients and posting to this little oasis -- and I'm not a girl. So life ain't necessarily so grand on the opposite side of the gender divide when you fall in love with a real progressive who takes this equality thing to mean really equal. But, all in all, it's been pretty grand.Ditto........! :D :wink:

[TIES2]

So you're wimps?

[Redrocks]

Not sure how you could possibly characterize a vocal progressive in this political climate to be a wimp. A commited husband and father, yes. :redcool: A disillusioned american, yep. :cry: A wimp? Hardly. :hah: But, I've been called worse, and coming from your side of this divide, I'll take wimp over the alternatives I've seen bandied about around here, and call it a night.

[PalestinianPride]

If the radical extremist Shiites take over...Yes, Iraq will be worse off under the new rule.It'll be the next Iran. That is what the Shiites wanted. Their attempts at throwing off Saddam were for the reason so Iraq can be like Khomeini's Iran.Women had it pretty good under Saddam.

Here is a a clip from a documentary, Saddam's Iraq.
Link to watch video (you need Real Player):http://www.journeyman.tv/download.php?id=5409

Saddam's Iraq

What was life really like in Saddam’s Iraq? This week’s offering is the definitive documentary on the cult of Saddam Hussein. Filmed just before the first Gulf war, it depicts a prosperous and sophisticated society in which every aspect of life is coloured by ‘love’ for the ‘Great Leader’. Darkly ironic, this film captures the surreal and Orwellian nature of life under Saddam Hussein. In a country which today has lost even its most basic services, the testimony of this vanquished middle-class and the prosperity of their society resonates on many levels.

In 1989 American filmmaker Jeff B. Harmon went to Iraq to make a film about Saddam’s unique brand of dictatorship. He found a cultured and surprisingly benevolent society, prospering despite the awesome power of its dictator Saddam Hussein. Visually a modern secular state, the contrast between this society and the anarchy and chaos of today’s Iraq is shocking.

“In the West, they think we all ride camels” complains 17 year old student Saad Bashir. He spends his free time practising Rachmaninov and disco hopping but has vowed to die for Saddam Hussein. His compatriot, the novelist and art critic Jabra Ibrahim Jabra, agrees. “In the West, they think Iraq is a closed society. Nothing could be so far from the truth.” Jabra praises the level of patronage artists receive from the state and lauds the lack of censorship. “I don’t think anyone would oppose the state. Especially since the state allows artists free expression in their work. You never find the state telling us what to do.”

Naji Salman Salih, Deputy Head of Iraq’s Jewish community, believes that the real threat to stability in the region comes from Israel. “We believe that Israel is an enemy of the Arab countries.” He defends Iraq’s right to obtain WMDs, citing that they are needed for self-defence. “We believe it’s necessary for Iraq or other countries to obtain nuclear weapons in order to challenge Israel.”

The dwarf hairdresser Abud Aqil, Lord of Baghdad’s nightlife, takes us on a guided tour of Baghdad’s underground gay society while Mustafa Hama Amin, a witness to the chemical bombing of Halabja, carefully parrots the Iraqi Government’s version of events. “The planes came from the Iranian border. They bombed us with chemicals.” His testimony is somewhat undermined by the audible prompting from the secret policeman off camera.

Staunch defenders of the regime, from a housewife to a Kurdish university professor claim their love and devotion to “Mr President Leader”. But their arguments visibly unravel in front of the camera in a way seldom captured before on film. In a clandestine interview, an Iraqi citizen gives his own account of life in Iraq – a view which, if expressed openly, would guarantee his death sentence. “If I said something, I would go to jail. I’ll just disappear.”

This is Iraqi society as never seen before, showing the viewer a vastly different picture of Iraq than that portrayed by the mass media. It provides a unique view of life under a totalitarian regime where the lines between kitsch and art, worship of God and 'The Great Leader' are blurred. Filmmaker Jeff B. Harmon has made an important and entertaining historical documentary.


Jeff B. Harmon
http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=9020

[Flory Days]

So you're wimps?
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you forgot to add your smilies. :angel: Or are you just jealous you don't have a wimp yourself? :laugh: ;)

Otherwise, I'll stick with Redrocks retort.

[mhafinancial]

I still can't believe Ties is a .... girl.

Although, some of her coniliatory tones now and then did indicate a certain lack of traditional TMBFTS.









Too Much Bush Fake Testosterone Syndrome - typical of neo-cons with no cure on the horizon.

[TIES2]

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you forgot to add your smilies. :angel: Or are you just jealous you don't have a wimp yourself? :laugh: ;)

Otherwise, I'll stick with Redrocks retort.


Yup...you've got it...I'm married to a good ol' new boy; same content as the good 'ol boy, just more decpetive packaging...he's actually a great guy, but when it comes to pitching in 'round the house, he's his father's son! :cry:

[TIES2]

I still can't believe Ties is a .... girl.

Although, some of her coniliatory tones now and then did indicate a certain lack of traditional TMBFTS.









Too Much Bush Fake Testosterone Syndrome - typical of neo-cons with no cure on the horizon.

I prefer the designation of woman, myself...and a formidable one at that... :laugh:

[mhafinancial]

An update on the plight of women in the "new" Iraq:

Sat Sep 24, 5:08 PM ET

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Women's rights activists in
Iraq say rising extremism is restricting their freedom, even as the country prepares to vote on a constitution that is touted as one of the Arab world's most progressive regarding women.

"Women cannot walk freely out in the street," said activist Ban Jamil, who directs the Rasafa Branch of Assyrian Women Union, a local non-governmental organisation in Baghdad.

"Women face lack of respect when they walk uncovered," said Jamil, a Christian, who said women are insulted if they show too much skin or walk in public without wearing the Islamic veil, or hijab, to cover their hair.

She blamed "imported extremist doctrines, which were never experienced in the past" for the new restrictions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050924/lf_afp/iraqwomen_050924210845

[orthy]

An update on the plight of women in the "new" Iraq:

Sat Sep 24, 5:08 PM ET

BAGHDAD (AFP) - Women's rights activists in
Iraq say rising extremism is restricting their freedom, even as the country prepares to vote on a constitution that is touted as one of the Arab world's most progressive regarding women.

"Women cannot walk freely out in the street," said activist Ban Jamil, who directs the Rasafa Branch of Assyrian Women Union, a local non-governmental organisation in Baghdad.

"Women face lack of respect when they walk uncovered," said Jamil, a Christian, who said women are insulted if they show too much skin or walk in public without wearing the Islamic veil, or hijab, to cover their hair.

She blamed "imported extremist doctrines, which were never experienced in the past" for the new restrictions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050924/lf_afp/iraqwomen_050924210845

It must be exhausting to root for everything to fail.

[murphy]

It must be exhausting to root for everything to fail.

He also must have hand and arm strength for all pf the c & p ;)

But rooting for failure is how I see it too!

[mhafinancial]

It must be exhausting to root for everything to fail.
It must really be exhausting rooting in vain for myriad failed policies.

See, I'm not rooting for it to fail. While I was rooting for it to never happen, once dunderhead committed us to it, it would have been nice if he achieved one goal quickly and got the hell out. But lie after lie continues, and the only thing left to root for is "peace with honor", which we will never have as long as W is still in office.

Such a pity and waste.

And rather than suggest that I am rooting for it to fail, how about addressing the concerns of the women in Iraq quoted in the article. That is the real issue here.

[KingstonGirl]

It's the same old, same old: attack the messenger, ignore the message.

To quote Maureen Dowd yesterday on Meet the Press, even Hillary Clinton is gonna have to answer for this one if she should run.

[mhafinancial]

It's the same old, same old: attack the messenger, ignore the message.


I should go work for FedEx.