If Karina had hit Florida?

[Princemyshkin]

Hate to be so cynical but can't help it seeing all those folks suffering, think if she had hit Florida this hard we'd be seeing a faster and more concentrated relief effort. Those folks need a massive and quick response from the Homeland Security and National Guard. Just a thought :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

[mhafinancial]

Not being cynical at all. For some, putting politics into the equation before some of the dead have been put into body bags might be....well....unseemly.

But when all of the dust settles around the immediacy of the problems, rightly or wrongly, there will be many fingers pointing in many directions, starting with


HURRICANE-PROTECTION PROJECTS
Flood-control funds short of requests

By Andrew Martin and Andrew Zajac
Washington Bureau
Published September 1, 2005

WASHINGTON -- Despite continuous warnings that a catastrophic hurricane could hit New Orleans, the Bush administration and Congress in recent years have repeatedly denied full funding for hurricane preparation and flood control.

That has delayed construction of levees around the city and stymied an ambitious project to improve drainage in New Orleans' neighborhoods.

For instance, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers requested $27 million for this fiscal year to pay for hurricane-protection projects around Lake Pontchartrain. The Bush administration countered with $3.9 million, and Congress eventually provided $5.7 million, according to figures provided by the office of U.S. Sen. Mary Landrieu (D-La.).

Because of the shortfalls, which were caused in part by the rising costs of the war in Iraq, the corps delayed seven contracts that included enlarging the levees, according to corps documents.

Much of the devastation in New Orleans was caused by breaches in the levees, which sent water from Lake Pontchartrain pouring into the city. Since much of the city is below sea level, the levee walls acted like the walls of a bowl that filled until as much as 80 percent of the city was under water.

Similarly, the Army Corps requested $78 million for this fiscal year for projects that would improve draining and prevent flooding in New Orleans. The Bush administration's budget provided $30 million for the projects, and Congress ultimately approved $36.5 million, according to Landrieu's office.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0509010170sep01,1,5853346.story?coll=chi-news-hed

[mhafinancial]

The National Guard Belongs in New Orleans and Biloxi. Not Baghdad.
by Norman Solomon

The men and women of the National Guard shouldn’t be killing in Iraq.

They should be helping in New Orleans and Biloxi.

The catastrophic hurricane was an act of God. But the U.S. war effort in Iraq is a continuing act of the president. And now, that effort is hampering the capacity of the National Guard to save lives at home.

Before the flooding of New Orleans drastically escalated on Tuesday, the White House tried to disarm questions that could be politically explosive. “To those of you who are concerned about whether or not we’re prepared to help, don’t be, we are,” President Bush said. “We’re in place, we’ve got equipment in place, supplies in place, and once the -- once we’re able to assess the damage, we’ll be able to move in and help those good folks in the affected areas.”

Echoing the official assurances, CBS News reported: “Even though more than a third of Mississippi’s and Louisiana’s National Guard troops are either in Iraq or supporting the war effort, the National Guard says there are more than enough at home to do the job.”

But after New Orleans levees collapsed and the scope of the catastrophe became more clear, such reassuring claims lost credibility. The Washington Post reported on Wednesday: “With thousands of their citizen-soldiers away fighting in Iraq, states hit hard by Hurricane Katrina scrambled to muster forces for rescue and security missions yesterday -- calling up Army bands and water-purification teams, among other units, and requesting help from distant states and the active-duty military.”

The back-page Post story added: “National Guard officials in the states acknowledged that the scale of the destruction is stretching the limits of available manpower while placing another extraordinary demand on their troops -- most of whom have already served tours in Iraq or Afghanistan or in homeland defense missions since 2001.”

Speaking for the Mississippi National Guard, Lt. Andy Thaggard said: “Missing the personnel is the big thing in this particular event. We need our people.” According to the Washington Post, the Mississippi National Guard “has a brigade of more than 4,000 troops in central Iraq” while “Louisiana also has about 3,000 Guard troops in Baghdad.”

National Guard troops don’t belong in Iraq. They should be rescuing and protecting in Louisiana and Mississippi, not patrolling and killing in a country that was invaded on the basis of presidential deception. They should be fighting the effects of flood waters at home -- helping people in the communities they know best -- not battling Iraqi people who want them to go away.

Let’s use the Internet today to forward and post this demand so widely that the politicians in Washington can no longer ignore it:

Bring the National Guard home. Immediately.

Norman Solomon is the author of the new book “War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.” For information, go to: www.WarMadeEasy.com

[myhometown]

My answer would be "no". In '92, early federal response to Andrew was very slow and inadequate. 2 or 3 days in, the director of Dade County Emergency Services (her name escapes me) went on every network news telecast and made an empassioned plea for help. After that, aid started flowing in. To me, that was the turning point and she was the heroine.

[mhafinancial]

What is most important right now are the people affected. The politics should wait. If the newspapers want to point fingers, go ahead. But for once, let's see the politicians do the right things.

[mhafinancial]

From Der Spiegel across the pond:


Katrina Should be A Lesson To US on Global Warming

Seems like everything is President Bush's fault. One day after Katrina hammered the Gulf Coast, German commentators are laying into the US for its stubborn attitude to global warming and Kyoto.

Hurricane Katrina is big news for German commentators, whatever their ilk. For some, the powerful storm which slammed the Gulf Coast on Monday, is a symbol of the sort of environmental terrors awaiting the world thanks to global warming and proof positive that America needs to quickly reverse its policy of playing down climate change. For the more conservative, it is simply another regrettable natural catastrophe.

Regardless of how one views it, Katrina has not only devastated parts of Louisiana and Mississippi and killed dozens, it also has threatened the US and its trading partners with economic instability. The Gulf Coast states refine about 30 percent of America's oil supply and Katrina's damage is threatening to cause already-high oil costs to skyrocket. The fun-loving town of New Orleans, beloved for its moody, French-inspired bars, crooning jazz riffs and free-for-all Mardi Gras spirit, has transformed into a watery ghost town, with 80 percent of the city's 480,000 residents obeying the mayor's call to evacuate. The pictures tell it all: frantic racing through chest-deep water, flooded city streets and uprooted trees. The storm even ripped off a chunk of the roof of the New Orleans Superdome, where close to 10,000 people had run to for cover.

HURRICANE KATRINA: A CITY UNDER WATER
REUTERS AP AFP

Click http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTA5NTMmbnI9OA_3_3,00.html to launch the image gallery (15 Photos).

The toughest commentary of the day comes from Germany's Environmental Minister, Jürgen Trittin, a Green Party member, who takes space in the Frankfurter Rundschau, a paper friendly with the Social Democrats, to bash US President George W. Bush's environmental laxity. He begins by likening the photos and videos of the hurricane stricken areas to scenes from a Roland Emmerich sci-fi film and insists that global warming and climate change are making it ever more likely that storms and floods will plague America and Europe. "There is only one possible route of action," he writes. "Greenhouse gases have to be radically reduced and it has to happen worldwide. Until now, the US has kept its eyes shut to this emergency. (Americans) make up a mere 4 percent of the population, but are responsible for close to a quarter of emissions." He adds that the average American is responsible for double as much carbon dioxide as the average European. "The Bush government rejects international climate protection goals by insisting that imposing them would negatively impact the American economy. The American president is closing his eyes to the economic and human costs his land and the world economy are suffering under natural catastrophes like Katrina and because of neglected environmental policies." As such, Trittin also calls for a reworking of the Kyoto Protocol -- dubbing it the uncreative title of "Kyoto 2" -- and insisting that the US be included.

The left-leaning Die Tageszeitung also delivers a punchy plea for more attention to global warming, saying politicians should pay more attention to Katrina's alarming images than to election polls and economic forecasts. "Hurricane Katrina has delivered terrible photos. Experts are already calling it the worst hurricane of all time. But this year's hurricane season has only just begun. Flooded villages, mud slides, sandbags....Scientists are quite calmly saying that we will see this kind of thing more often. After all, this is what they have been forecasting for years -- climate change, human-caused and irreversible. But a change of policy is not in the cards. Politics is trapped between voters and industry lobbyists. And of course, there is the killer argument: Protecting the environment impedes economic growth." This is not how it should be, the paper opines. Indeed, more "pictures from New Orleans should encourage us to follow science's advice on climate protection."

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372179,00.html

[TIES2]

From Der Spiegel across the pond:


Katrina Should be A Lesson To US on Global Warming

Seems like everything is President Bush's fault. One day after Katrina hammered the Gulf Coast, German commentators are laying into the US for its stubborn attitude to global warming and Kyoto.

Hurricane Katrina is big news for German commentators, whatever their ilk. For some, the powerful storm which slammed the Gulf Coast on Monday, is a symbol of the sort of environmental terrors awaiting the world thanks to global warming and proof positive that America needs to quickly reverse its policy of playing down climate change. For the more conservative, it is simply another regrettable natural catastrophe.

Regardless of how one views it, Katrina has not only devastated parts of Louisiana and Mississippi and killed dozens, it also has threatened the US and its trading partners with economic instability. The Gulf Coast states refine about 30 percent of America's oil supply and Katrina's damage is threatening to cause already-high oil costs to skyrocket. The fun-loving town of New Orleans, beloved for its moody, French-inspired bars, crooning jazz riffs and free-for-all Mardi Gras spirit, has transformed into a watery ghost town, with 80 percent of the city's 480,000 residents obeying the mayor's call to evacuate. The pictures tell it all: frantic racing through chest-deep water, flooded city streets and uprooted trees. The storm even ripped off a chunk of the roof of the New Orleans Superdome, where close to 10,000 people had run to for cover.

HURRICANE KATRINA: A CITY UNDER WATER
REUTERS AP AFP

Click http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/0,5538,PB64-SUQ9MTA5NTMmbnI9OA_3_3,00.html to launch the image gallery (15 Photos).

The toughest commentary of the day comes from Germany's Environmental Minister, Jürgen Trittin, a Green Party member, who takes space in the Frankfurter Rundschau, a paper friendly with the Social Democrats, to bash US President George W. Bush's environmental laxity. He begins by likening the photos and videos of the hurricane stricken areas to scenes from a Roland Emmerich sci-fi film and insists that global warming and climate change are making it ever more likely that storms and floods will plague America and Europe. "There is only one possible route of action," he writes. "Greenhouse gases have to be radically reduced and it has to happen worldwide. Until now, the US has kept its eyes shut to this emergency. (Americans) make up a mere 4 percent of the population, but are responsible for close to a quarter of emissions." He adds that the average American is responsible for double as much carbon dioxide as the average European. "The Bush government rejects international climate protection goals by insisting that imposing them would negatively impact the American economy. The American president is closing his eyes to the economic and human costs his land and the world economy are suffering under natural catastrophes like Katrina and because of neglected environmental policies." As such, Trittin also calls for a reworking of the Kyoto Protocol -- dubbing it the uncreative title of "Kyoto 2" -- and insisting that the US be included.

The left-leaning Die Tageszeitung also delivers a punchy plea for more attention to global warming, saying politicians should pay more attention to Katrina's alarming images than to election polls and economic forecasts. "Hurricane Katrina has delivered terrible photos. Experts are already calling it the worst hurricane of all time. But this year's hurricane season has only just begun. Flooded villages, mud slides, sandbags....Scientists are quite calmly saying that we will see this kind of thing more often. After all, this is what they have been forecasting for years -- climate change, human-caused and irreversible. But a change of policy is not in the cards. Politics is trapped between voters and industry lobbyists. And of course, there is the killer argument: Protecting the environment impedes economic growth." This is not how it should be, the paper opines. Indeed, more "pictures from New Orleans should encourage us to follow science's advice on climate protection."

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,372179,00.html

Apparently you do not know your hurricane history. The strongest hurricane ever to hit the US was the 1934 or 35 Labor Day storm that trampled over the keys and took out workers in FDRs work program who were building the railway (during the depression).

then there was the 1900 or 01 Galveston storm, the 1938 NE Express, etc.

There are many historical accounts (from ship's logs, etc) from early explorers of major storms affecting the islands as well as the US. When building the southern part of the Garden State Parkway, workers unearthed giant, completely intact trees that they believe fell during some long ago monster hurricane (would explain all that sand in Southern NJ).

So for the Germans to say we're being punished for not signing the Kyoto agreement is just insanity. There have been and will continue to be cycles of major hurricanes, gloabal warming not withstanding.

[TIES2]

The National Guard Belongs in New Orleans and Biloxi. Not Baghdad.
by Norman Solomon

The men and women of the National Guard shouldn’t be killing in Iraq.

They should be helping in New Orleans and Biloxi.

The catastrophic hurricane was an act of God. But the U.S. war effort in Iraq is a continuing act of the president. And now, that effort is hampering the capacity of the National Guard to save lives at home.

Before the flooding of New Orleans drastically escalated on Tuesday, the White House tried to disarm questions that could be politically explosive. “To those of you who are concerned about whether or not we’re prepared to help, don’t be, we are,” President Bush said. “We’re in place, we’ve got equipment in place, supplies in place, and once the -- once we’re able to assess the damage, we’ll be able to move in and help those good folks in the affected areas.”

Echoing the official assurances, CBS News reported: “Even though more than a third of Mississippi’s and Louisiana’s National Guard troops are either in Iraq or supporting the war effort, the National Guard says there are more than enough at home to do the job.”

But after New Orleans levees collapsed and the scope of the catastrophe became more clear, such reassuring claims lost credibility. The Washington Post reported on Wednesday: “With thousands of their citizen-soldiers away fighting in Iraq, states hit hard by Hurricane Katrina scrambled to muster forces for rescue and security missions yesterday -- calling up Army bands and water-purification teams, among other units, and requesting help from distant states and the active-duty military.”

The back-page Post story added: “National Guard officials in the states acknowledged that the scale of the destruction is stretching the limits of available manpower while placing another extraordinary demand on their troops -- most of whom have already served tours in Iraq or Afghanistan or in homeland defense missions since 2001.”

Speaking for the Mississippi National Guard, Lt. Andy Thaggard said: “Missing the personnel is the big thing in this particular event. We need our people.” According to the Washington Post, the Mississippi National Guard “has a brigade of more than 4,000 troops in central Iraq” while “Louisiana also has about 3,000 Guard troops in Baghdad.”

National Guard troops don’t belong in Iraq. They should be rescuing and protecting in Louisiana and Mississippi, not patrolling and killing in a country that was invaded on the basis of presidential deception. They should be fighting the effects of flood waters at home -- helping people in the communities they know best -- not battling Iraqi people who want them to go away.

Let’s use the Internet today to forward and post this demand so widely that the politicians in Washington can no longer ignore it:

Bring the National Guard home. Immediately.

Norman Solomon is the author of the new book “War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death.” For information, go to: www.WarMadeEasy.com


The problem is not the lack of troops, the problem is they are standing around doing nothing. Plus, they are arriving empty handed.

[dudley]

i know how slow fema was in getting
to florida last year - at least to northwest
florida - it took several days...
so politics didn't help us...
i know because we were here without
power, water, phone, gas, etc....
so if katrina had hit florida again -
especially northwest florida (as it
was once predicted to do)
well, after ivan, arlene, cindy & dennis
there would have been a mental health
disaster too -

this area would have been a combination
of flooding like new orleans and a wipe
out like mississippi - in fact last year
with ivan we had some areas - including
areas NOT on the beach that looked just
like gulfport -
in fact,
they still - look just like gulfport -

i do know that logistically it takes a while
to move goods and services in to an area -
however, fema had plently of practice last
year

i also know from experience here that the
problems with fema are just beginning as
we have had numerous hassles between
local and federal officials - although knowing
our local officials i can't say the fault was
solely with fema -

i do think the media can distort - in various
ways and directions - that said it does appear
that they are not doing enough - i also do not
understand why basic food and water cannot
be airlifted in - i mean peanut butter crackers
and some bottled water -
it isn't great but its sustaining until they get them moved -
hey, we lived on it for days last year......

[mhafinancial]

The problem is not the lack of troops, the problem is they are standing around doing nothing. Plus, they are arriving empty handed.
OK, so the problem is lack of leadership from the top.

[Daddy-O]

OK, so the problem is lack of leadership from the top.

Riddle me this...from two separate stories on MSNBC....

1) "FEMA is spending an estimated $500 million a day as it struggles to respond to devastating flooding in New Orleans and severe destruction that spans the length of the Gulf Coast from Louisiana to Florida."

and yet...

2) “This is a national disgrace,” said Terry Ebbert, head of New Orleans’ emergency operations. “FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control,” Ebbert said. “We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims but we can’t bail out the city of New Orleans."

"We have got a mayor who has been pushing and asking but we’re not getting supplies,” he said. He said the evacuation was almost entirely a Louisiana operation. “This is not a FEMA operation. I haven’t seen a single FEMA guy.”


:scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

[TIES2]

OK, so the problem is lack of leadership from the top.


Clinton presided over Andrew and, well, we know what kind of scores the government rcvd on that, so let's not go down the leadership path (because Clinton , after all, is being given all the credit for whipping FEMA into the fine, lean response machine it has turned out to be! :scratch: )

Besides, why is the federal government responsible for running disaster plans in the State of Louisiana? You'd think the Gov, Mayor and others would have had an iron clad plan in place. They have been warned for years that a large storm making a direct hit on N'Orleans would be catastrophic (as would a direct hit on Tampa, which has many problems similar to N'Orleans, New York and other major metro areas). They should have had a workable plan in place. Maybe they thought they did. Turns out they were wrong. If there's one upside to all of this, I'm quite certain the next time a Hurricane threatens land, a vast majority of people will heed the evacuation orders...and that's a good thing!

[mhafinancial]

Clinton presided over Andrew and, well, we know what kind of scores the government rcvd on that, so let's not go down the leadership path (because Clinton , after all, is being given all the credit for whipping FEMA into the fine, lean response machine it has turned out to be! :scratch: )

Besides, why is the federal government responsible for running disaster plans in the State of Louisiana? You'd think the Gov, Mayor and others would have had an iron clad plan in place. They have been warned for years that a large storm making a direct hit on N'Orleans would be catastrophic (as would a direct hit on Tampa, which has many problems similar to N'Orleans, New York and other major metro areas). They should have had a workable plan in place. Maybe they thought they did. Turns out they were wrong. If there's one upside to all of this, I'm quite certain the next time a Hurricane threatens land, a vast majority of people will heed the evacuation orders...and that's a good thing!


Ummmm...Andrew was in 1992. I believe we had another Bush at the helm?


Clinton brought the first professional manager to FEMA in its 13 year history.

From the Washington Post, August 30, 2005:

But it was Hurricane Andrew, which hit Florida in 1992, that really energized FEMA. The year after that catastrophic storm, President Bill Clinton appointed James Lee Witt to be director of the agency. Witt was the first professional emergency manager to run the agency. Showing a serious regard for the cost of natural disasters in both economic impact and lives lost or disrupted, Witt reoriented FEMA from civil defense preparations to a focus on natural disaster preparedness and disaster mitigation. In an effort to reduce the repeated loss of property and lives every time a disaster struck, he started a disaster mitigation effort called "Project Impact." FEMA was elevated to a Cabinet-level agency, in recognition of its important responsibilities coordinating efforts across departmental and governmental lines.

Witt fought for federal funding to support the new program. At its height, only $20 million was allocated to the national effort, but it worked wonders. One of the best examples of the impact the program had here in the central Puget Sound area and in western Washington state was in protecting people at the time of the Nisqually earthquake on Feb. 28, 2001. Homes had been retrofitted for earthquakes and schools were protected from high-impact structural hazards. Those involved with Project Impact thought it ironic that the day of that quake was also the day that the then-new president chose to announce that Project Impact would be discontinued.

Indeed, the advent of the Bush administration in January 2001 signaled the beginning of the end for FEMA. The newly appointed leadership of the agency showed little interest in its work or in the missions pursued by the departed Witt. Then came the Sept. 11 attacks and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security. Soon FEMA was being absorbed into the "homeland security borg."

This year it was announced that FEMA is to "officially" lose the disaster preparedness function that it has had since its creation. The move is a death blow to an agency that was already on life support. In fact, FEMA employees have been directed not to become involved in disaster preparedness functions, since a new directorate (yet to be established) will have that mission.

FEMA will be survived by state and local emergency management offices, which are confused about how they fit into the national picture. That's because the focus of the national effort remains terrorism, even if the Department of Homeland Security still talks about "all-hazards preparedness." Those of us in the business of dealing with emergencies find ourselves with no national leadership and no mentors. We are being forced to fend for ourselves, making do with the "homeland security" mission. Our "all-hazards" approaches have been decimated by the administration's preoccupation with terrorism.

[mhafinancial]

Clinton presided over Andrew and, well, we know what kind of scores the government rcvd on that
How quick you righties are to blame Clinton when there is a Bush so willing to be there to take the honors. :laugh:

[HeldUp]

uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but Katrina DID hit Florida. Ft. Lauderdale area, I believe. Then, she headed to the center of the Gulf of Mexico and did a Class 5 beeline to the Gulf Coast...

[Princemyshkin]

Tarik,
You are right, and it was Katrina not Karina, my bad in that error. I posed the question if it had hit Florida as bad as it did the Gulf. God knows Florida has had its share the last few years. Having gone through Hugo and being over a 100 miles inland ,I know how powerful these things are, we were without power for 10 days. Pales in comparision to what happened here.
Hope your ankle is better and sorry for the lack of the Western shows.

[Princemyshkin]

Messed something else up. It was Karo's ankle, hope you are better than that. Been a long week sorry

[HeldUp]

I did hurt my ankle last week. Much better now. ;)