Could New Orleans Have Been Evacuated in Advance???

[TIES2]

A lot of criticism is being levied as to why more steps weren't taken to evacuate New Orleans in advance of the storm.
One question in my mind is whether a complete and total evacuation was even possible.

Let's suppose you have approximately 500,000 people in New Orleans who did not have the means to evacuate on their own.

Let's suppose New Orleans has 1,000 buses it could have used to evacuate people. The closest evacuation point was Baton Rouge, roughly 76 miles away.

It would take 1,000 buses approximately 17.5 hours to evacuate 500,000 people assuming the following:

* Each bus could hold 100 people.
* The complete roundtrip, including loading and unloading, could be done in 3.5 hours

The above does not take into consideration people with special needs (elderly, children, the sick, the weak), nor does it take into account traffic slow downs (Katrina occurred on a weekend, what it if had been the middle of the work week?). It does not take into account the need to mobilize and make 1000 buses ready, or stops for refueling, or breaks for the drivers, or anything along those lines. It does not take into account that Baton Rouge would most likely not be able to house or handle 500,000 people. Other geographic locations are farther away or also in the path of the storm. It does not take into account the hundreds of thousands also needing to evacuate from areas surrounding New Orleans, or the folks evacuating in Mississippi and Alabama.

Factor all that in, and you probably would not be able to evacuate the city in 72 hours.

And, given the capriciousness of these storms to change course, diminish in strength, etc., it is probably unrealistic and foolhardy to think you could evacuate a major city within 24 hours of an advancing hurricane.

The worst case scenario feared by many, is that you have 100s of thousands of people stuck in their cars when the hurricane hits.

Think about Hurricane Floyd...that was the largest peace-time evacuation ever (estimates range from 2.5 to 3 Million). Up and down the East Coast roads were clogged for hours...

After the fact, there was a great deal of criticism for calling so many evacuations so far in advance. Perhaps none have noticed, but the Hurricane Center and local forecasters since Floyd seem more reluctant to issue evacuation orders in advance of that 24 hour window (the exception being the Florida keys, which cannot be evacuated in only 24 hours)taking a greater wait and see attitude. Classic damned if you, damned if you don't.

At a minimum, it would probably take 72 hours to fully evacuate a major metro area. At 72 hours it's difficult to say exactly where the storm will hit or at what intensity.



I just don't think it's possible or feasible to get everyone out of harm's way in advance of a storm. There will always be an element of risk and an element of the unknown.

[On Highway 29]

To me your thinking sounds like you’re saying it was okay that the people who didn’t have the means to evacuate were left behind because logistics made it impossible to get the people out. What kind of country are we if that’s how we determine who gets out and who stays, who lives and who dies?

People have offered several suggestions on how the evacuation could have been handled better. Ships or naval carriers could have been brought in to get the people out.

There should have been a plan in place (not only in N.O., but in every city and town.) The slow response time and uncoordinated effort from the feds makes you shake your head and wonder who our government is serving. What has Homeland Security been doing the last couple of years?

In a letter to the editor in the local paper, someone wrote that if the New Orleans mayor had threatened to remove someone’s feeding tube, our government would have responded immediately.

There are many aspects of the hurricane that are sad…one of them being the fact that, as Newt Gingrich said, if we can’t deal with a hurricane why do we think we’re prepared to deal with another terrorist attack?

[TIES2]

I'm not saying it's okay by any means...but I am saying that there are things bigger than our ability to prepare and respond...unfortunately, this storm was one of them. And what I am saying is not news. Those in the Hurricane business have been warning of such a scenario for a long, long time. If we continue to over build on our coasts, and allow people to rebuild in areas prone to potentially devastating effects in the face of Cat 4 and 5 storms then we are simply asking for more of the same in the future.

The only way I think we could have even been slightly prepared was to have mobilized all the forces for such doomsday scenario in advance. But as I mentioned elsewhere, criticism ran in the other direction after Hurricane Floyd. To have effectively removed all of the people needing removal from New Orleans and the other areas affected, it would have required, in my opinion, beginning evacuations 72 - 96 hours before the storm hit. At that time, the models still had Katrina slamming into Pensacola. We would have evacuated the wrong area.

I don't know what you think we should do, evacuate the entire Gulf from Brownsville to Naples any time a hurricane enters the gulf? Just have sitting in the storeroom of all major sports arenas enough bottled water, rations and cots to house the homeless should disaster strike??????

I don't know about you, but when I went to sleep last Monday it seemed like New Orleans had been spared again. Tuesday morning when the levee broke it went from relative calm to chaos in less time than a Dodge Viper goes from 0 - 60. And even if there was no Nat'l Guard in Iraq it is unlikely they would have been mobilized any faster than they did.

You're living in a complete fantasy world if you think these things can be handled on the turn of a dime.

[VermontNJGirl]

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

New Orleans had a plan in place in preparation for just such an event. Check out this link and travel down about halfway to find the Evacuation protocol.

Guess over one thousand buses parked in lots and never touched, and now flooded, prove that something went really wrong in the execution of that mandatory evacuation.

And the mayor was contacted by the Federal Government on Saturday night and urged to call a mandatory evacuation that night, but the mayor decided to "sleep on it", and waited til Sunday to call for it. That was only 24 hours before the storm hit.

The order of action does not start with FEMA. It starts with the local government and moves up to the state and FEMA can only move in when asked to by the state authorities. An article I just read accuses FEMA of not taking action until "hours" after the hurricane hit. That's HOURS, not days. I wouldn't expect anything faster, especially since it was expected that the local and state authorities had taken the appropriate actions to save their citizens.

The Mayor and the governor of Louisiana screwed this one up big time, and they are trying to throw off the blame because they know it. And the Mayor could have been the hero he so wants to be, if he had called for the evacuation on Saturday night and rolled those buses.

Deb

[mhafinancial]

http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

New Orleans had a plan in place in preparation for just such an event. Check out this link and travel down about halfway to find the Evacuation protocol.

Guess over one thousand buses parked in lots and never touched, and now flooded, prove that something went really wrong in the execution of that mandatory evacuation.

And the mayor was contacted by the Federal Government on Saturday night and urged to call a mandatory evacuation that night, but the mayor decided to "sleep on it", and waited til Sunday to call for it. That was only 24 hours before the storm hit.

The order of action does not start with FEMA. It starts with the local government and moves up to the state and FEMA can only move in when asked to by the state authorities. An article I just read accuses FEMA of not taking action until "hours" after the hurricane hit. That's HOURS, not days. I wouldn't expect anything faster, especially since it was expected that the local and state authorities had taken the appropriate actions to save their citizens.

The Mayor and the governor of Louisiana screwed this one up big time, and they are trying to throw off the blame because they know it. And the Mayor could have been the hero he so wants to be, if he had called for the evacuation on Saturday night and rolled those buses.

Deb

According to their protocol, which you were so kind to link us to,

"Slow developing weather conditions (primarily hurricane) will create increased readiness culminating in an evacuation order 24 hours (12 daylight hours) prior to predicted landfall....

A. Evacuation Time Requirements

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time). Clearance time does not refer to the time a single vehicle spends traveling on the road network. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.

> Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less

> Special Needs Evacuation Order: 8-12 hours after Precautionary Evacuation Notice issued

> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less "

Now, at 11 p.m. on Saturday, August 27, The National Hurricane Center issued a hurricane warning from Morgan City, Louisiana, to the Alabama-Florida border, an area that includes New Orleans. A warning means that hurricane conditions are expected within the warning area within the next 24 hours.

Note that it was not until 11 P.M. Saturday evening the the National (not New Orleas or Louisiana) Hurrican Center issued a hurricane warning that encompassed New Orleans.

At 10 a.m. on Sunday, Katrina hits 175 mph winds, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin orders mandatory evacuations as the storm seems to beat a direct path to the city.

Now, maybe the Mayor decided to "sleep on it" since the National Hurricane Center did not give a specific geographic warning until most people were in bed?

Also on the 28th, the Governor of Louisiana asks the federal government for help http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

There is two things this administration is good at, and that is spin and slinging mud at anyone or anything that disagrees with their policies or actions.

Iraq went from the spectre of WMD mushroom clouds to freeing the Iraqi people to whatever the reason du jour was in order to justify the war. And anyone who disagrees gets slammed in the press by the Rove machine.

Let me ask you this. If a nuclear bomb went off in your safe little haven in Vermont, would YOU want Michael Brown, former horsey guy, directing the relief effort? Are you not even mildly distressed that the man tapped by this president to head FEMA had ZERO experience in emergency protocols, having spent the prior decade running Arabian horse shows? And that the man tapped as Undersecretary was an estate planning attorney? Both ass-kissing Republican sycophants, sure, but could the administration not have found a less strategic place for them?

Truman had a sign on his desk "The Buck Stops Here". These guys take no responsibility for anything, ever. They are a disgrace.

[TIES2]

To me your thinking sounds like you’re saying it was okay that the people who didn’t have the means to evacuate were left behind because logistics made it impossible to get the people out. What kind of country are we if that’s how we determine who gets out and who stays, who lives and who dies?

People have offered several suggestions on how the evacuation could have been handled better. Ships or naval carriers could have been brought in to get the people out.

There should have been a plan in place (not only in N.O., but in every city and town.) The slow response time and uncoordinated effort from the feds makes you shake your head and wonder who our government is serving. What has Homeland Security been doing the last couple of years?

In a letter to the editor in the local paper, someone wrote that if the New Orleans mayor had threatened to remove someone’s feeding tube, our government would have responded immediately.

There are many aspects of the hurricane that are sad…one of them being the fact that, as Newt Gingrich said, if we can’t deal with a hurricane why do we think we’re prepared to deal with another terrorist attack?

I see, in advance of a major hurricane send ships into the raging Gulf to pick up evacuees???? They would have needed to do that when Katrina was still 150 miles east of Fort Lauderdale!

According to FEMA and the Red Cross (pre Katrina) most areas do not have comprehensive written plans. And most do not (thankfully) have tested plans. Meaning they have never had to implement on the plans.

I don't disagree that there are things that should have and could have been done. Let's just hope everyone learns from this situation. As I said elsewhere, the next Hurricane to come to any town, I bet you see a lot more people evacuating -- and that's a good thing!

[TIES2]

According to their protocol, which you were so kind to link us to,

"Slow developing weather conditions (primarily hurricane) will create increased readiness culminating in an evacuation order 24 hours (12 daylight hours) prior to predicted landfall....

A. Evacuation Time Requirements

Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours. This is based on clearance time or is the time required to clear all vehicles evacuating in response to a hurricane situation from area roadways. Clearance time begins when the first evacuating vehicle enters the road network and ends when the last evacuating vehicle reaches its destination.

Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time). Clearance time does not refer to the time a single vehicle spends traveling on the road network. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.

> Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less

> Special Needs Evacuation Order: 8-12 hours after Precautionary Evacuation Notice issued

> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less "

Now, at 11 p.m. on Saturday, August 27, The National Hurricane Center issued a hurricane warning from Morgan City, Louisiana, to the Alabama-Florida border, an area that includes New Orleans. A warning means that hurricane conditions are expected within the warning area within the next 24 hours.

Note that it was not until 11 P.M. Saturday evening the the National (not New Orleas or Louisiana) Hurrican Center issued a hurricane warning that encompassed New Orleans.

At 10 a.m. on Sunday, Katrina hits 175 mph winds, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin orders mandatory evacuations as the storm seems to beat a direct path to the city.

Now, maybe the Mayor decided to "sleep on it" since the National Hurricane Center did not give a specific geographic warning until most people were in bed?

Also on the 28th, the Governor of Louisiana asks the federal government for help http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

There is two things this administration is good at, and that is spin and slinging mud at anyone or anything that disagrees with their policies or actions.

Iraq went from the spectre of WMD mushroom clouds to freeing the Iraqi people to whatever the reason du jour was in order to justify the war. And anyone who disagrees gets slammed in the press by the Rove machine.

Let me ask you this. If a nuclear bomb went off in your safe little haven in Vermont, would YOU want Michael Brown, former horsey guy, directing the relief effort? Are you not even mildly distressed that the man tapped by this president to head FEMA had ZERO experience in emergency protocols, having spent the prior decade running Arabian horse shows? And that the man tapped as Undersecretary was an estate planning attorney? Both ass-kissing Republican sycophants, sure, but could the administration not have found a less strategic place for them?

Truman had a sign on his desk "The Buck Stops Here". These guys take no responsibility for anything, ever. They are a disgrace.

David, you are insane. And obviously have never lived in hurricane country. Nor have you any clue as to the 36 and 24 hour watch/warning system as issued by the Nat Hurricane Center (I'm suprised you have not yet placed the blame on them!).

As of the time the 24 hour warning was issued, there was no time, repeat, no time, to implement a mass evacuation of New Orleans. The Mayor should have known that.

I suppose in hindsight the mayor should have erred on the side of caution and issued a mandatory evacuation earlier. However, there have been many Cat 5s that have lost steam well before landfall.

But to dismiss the item Deb posted is just typical of your style. Clearly the document states the need for a 72 hour window. And I repeat, again, at 72 hours, the Nat Hurr Ctr still had the storm on a path to Pensacola.

What's a liberal Mayor to do?????? I know, sleep on it and when he gets caught with his pants down, whine like a lib and blame it on the President. :roll:

And what is completely missing here is any acknowledgement that NO was lucky that the storm slowed down and jogged to the right. Had it stayed the course, we would not even be discussing this now. The levees most likely would have given way during the storm. Those who made it to their roofs would have been swept away in the raging waters.

By the way, Brown is a lawyer. You really should get your news from sources other than the MM web page.

[mhafinancial]

David, you are insane. And obviously have never lived in hurricane country. Nor have you any clue as to the 36 and 24 hour watch/warning system as issued by the Nat Hurricane Center (I'm suprised you have not yet placed the blame on them!).

As of the time the 24 hour warning was issued, there was no time, repeat, no time, to implement a mass evacuation of New Orleans. The Mayor should have known that.

I suppose in hindsight the mayor should have erred on the side of caution and issued a mandatory evacuation earlier. However, there have been many Cat 5s that have lost steam well before landfall.

But to dismiss the item Deb posted is just typical of your style. Clearly the document states the need for a 72 hour window. And I repeat, again, at 72 hours, the Nat Hurr Ctr still had the storm on a path to Pensacola.

Perfect. You have made my point. How can the White House shift the blame to the locals when there was no way the locals could have had the time and resources to respond with a full scale evacuation.

What's a liberal Mayor to do?????? I know, sleep on it and when he gets caught with his pants down, whine like a lib and blame it on the President. :roll:
Again, 11 pm warning issued. And you know what? All the white folks with cars or $$$ were able to get out. It was just the poorest of the poor, with an occassional fool thrown in, who stayed.


By the way, Brown is a lawyer. You really should get your news from sources other than the MM web page.

A lawyer??? A lawyer??? BFD. Next time there is an emergency, feel free to call a lawyer. I'd much prefer to call a rescue and safety professional. Your sources need to be a lot better than Fox News. From the White House press room http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011203-6.html :

Nominations
President Bush to Nominate Two Individuals to Serve in His Administration

The President announced his intention to nominate two individuals to serve as members of his administration.

The President intends to nominate Michael D. Brown to be Deputy Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Brown was appointed FEMA General Counsel in February, and Acting Deputy Director in September, where he has served as the Chairman of the Consequences Management Working Group. From 1991 to 2001, Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association, an international subsidiary of the national governing organization of the U.S. Olympic Committee. From 1988 to 1991, Brown was General Counsel to Dillingham Insurance, Suits Drilling, Suits Rig, Latigo Energy, Dillingham Ranch and Dillingham Enterprises, and from 1980 to 1988, he was an attorney in private practice. In 1978 to 1980, he worked for the Oklahoma State Senate Finance Committee, and from 1975 to 1978, Brown worked for the City of Edmond, Oklahoma, overseeing the emergency services divisions. Brown is a graduate of Central State University and Oklahoma City University Law School."

Now, show me where he has even the tiniest qualification to be running FEMA.

[mhafinancial]

By the way, Brown is a lawyer. You really should get your news from sources other than the MM web page.

From Knight-Ridder:

NEW YORK So who is Michael Brown, now catching all kinds of criticism for his handling of the catastrophe in New Orleans? It seems his primary career experience before nabbing a Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) post was running an Arabian horse association. An article by Matt Stearns and Seth Borenstein for Knight Ridder Newspapers observes, "there was little in Michael D. Brown's background to prepare him for the fury of Hurricane Katrina."

The reporters quote Kate Hale, former Miami-Dade
emergency management chief: "He's done a hell of a job, because I'm not aware of any Arabian horses being killed in this storm. The world that this man operated in and
the focus of this work does not in any way translate to this. He does not have the experience."

During the 1990s, Brown served as judges and stewards commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association. His job was to ensure that horse-show judges followed the rules and to investigate allegations against those suspected of cheating. "I wouldn't have regarded his position in the horse industry as a platform to where he is now," said Tom Connelly, a former association president. The reporters refer to Brown's stormy years with the horses as a "rocky tenure."

But Brown knew Joe Allbaugh, President Bush's 2000
campaign manager. Allbaugh took over FEMA in 2001, and hired Brown as general counsel.

[TIES2]

Perfect. You have made my point. How can the White House shift the blame to the locals when there was no way the locals could have had the time and resources to respond with a full scale evacuation.

I'VE ONLY MADFE YOUR POINT IF YOUR POINT IS THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE TROUBLE BREATHING SINCE YOUR HEAD HAS APPARENTLY BEEN UP YOUR AS* FOR WAY TOO LONG.

Again, 11 pm warning issued. And you know what? All the white folks with cars or $$$ were able to get out. It was just the poorest of the poor, with an occassional fool thrown in, who stayed.



A lawyer??? A lawyer??? BFD. Next time there is an emergency, feel free to call a lawyer. I'd much prefer to call a rescue and safety professional. Your sources need to be a lot better than Fox News. From the White House press room http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011203-6.html :

Nominations
President Bush to Nominate Two Individuals to Serve in His Administration

The President announced his intention to nominate two individuals to serve as members of his administration.

The President intends to nominate Michael D. Brown to be Deputy Director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Brown was appointed FEMA General Counsel in February, and Acting Deputy Director in September, where he has served as the Chairman of the Consequences Management Working Group. From 1991 to 2001, Brown was the Commissioner of the International Arabian Horse Association, an international subsidiary of the national governing organization of the U.S. Olympic Committee. From 1988 to 1991, Brown was General Counsel to Dillingham Insurance, Suits Drilling, Suits Rig, Latigo Energy, Dillingham Ranch and Dillingham Enterprises, and from 1980 to 1988, he was an attorney in private practice. In 1978 to 1980, he worked for the Oklahoma State Senate Finance Committee, and from 1975 to 1978, Brown worked for the City of Edmond, Oklahoma, overseeing the emergency services divisions. Brown is a graduate of Central State University and Oklahoma City University Law School."

Now, show me where he has even the tiniest qualification to be running FEMA.

DAVID

I HAVE ONLY MADE YOUR POINT IF YOUR POINT IS THAT YOU'VE BEEN WALKING AROUND WITH YOUR HEAD UP YOUR AS* FOR THE PAST DECADE.

[mhafinancial]

DAVID

I HAVE ONLY MADE YOUR POINT IF YOUR POINT IS THAT YOU'VE BEEN WALKING AROUND WITH YOUR HEAD UP YOUR AS* FOR THE PAST DECADE.
Typical right wing response. Give a rationale answer, and you get called names. Rove has taught you well, grasshopper.

[TIES2]

[QUOTE=mhafinancial]Perfect. You have made my point. How can the White House shift the blame to the locals when there was no way the locals could have had the time and resources to respond with a full scale evacuation.

Again, 11 pm warning issued. And you know what? All the white folks with cars or $$$ were able to get out. It was just the poorest of the poor, with an occassional fool thrown in, who stayed. QUOTE]


Given the vulnerability of New Orleans, the locals should have made time for both time and resources well in advance of any storm.

The Florida Keys order up mandatory evacuations well in advance of the 24-hour window provided by the Nat' Hurr Ctr. Why? Because they know 24 hours is not enough to time to evacuate the Keys. Can't tell you how many times the Keys have been evacuated only to have a storm veer this way or that, without so much as a leaf falling off a tree. Most who go understand it's better to be safe than sorry, or, perhaps, dead.

You would think the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana, understanding the unique vulnerabilities of New Orleans would have proceeded in kind. It should not have even been a debatable issue for them. Ultimately, they, and they alone, are the ones that gambled with the life of their residents.

And, yes, David, those with cars were clogging Louisiana highways beginning early Saturday. Apparently they knew something the mayor and governor did not. And don't delude yourself by thinking the only ones that escaped town were white; or that the only ones left in town were black. Simply not the case. But if you want to play the race card, be my guest.

The fact that New Orleans has such a large population below the poverty line is just another reason why the failure of the mayor and governor to act more decisively amounts to nothing more than negligence. Given the strength and path of the storm, they were remiss in not moving more swiftly. The tragedy that unfolded over the course of the past week is nothing compared to the tragedy that would have unfolded had the storm maintained it's strength and course. That alone is sufficient grounds to call for the impeachment of both the Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Loiusiana.

FEMA is and always has been a back end agency. Their primary role is to assist after the storm; not before, not during. That's the province of local officials.

But like others on this board who apparently put all their hopes in the Federal government to save their butts in times of calamity, you may want to rethink that strategy.

[mhafinancial]

FEMA is and always has been a back end agency. Their primary role is to assist after the storm; not before, not during. That's the province of local officials.

But like others on this board who apparently put all their hopes in the Federal government to save their butts in times of calamity, you may want to rethink that strategy.
Exactly. And where were they after the storm?

Here's a few clues:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/84aa35cc-1da8-11da-b40b-00000e2511c8.html

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/105538/7048

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html?ex=1283572800&en=1d14ebfbd942a7d0&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/171718/0826

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470

[TIES2]

Exactly. And where were they after the storm?

Here's a few clues:

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/84aa35cc-1da8-11da-b40b-00000e2511c8.html

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/5/105538/7048

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/05/national/nationalspecial/05blame.html?ex=1283572800&en=1d14ebfbd942a7d0&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=15147862&BRD=1817&PAG=461&dept_id=68561&rfi=6

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/9/3/171718/0826

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-050902daley,1,2011979.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18470

David --

You know I don't think help in any form was there soon enough...I was insane last week about the time it was taking to get help on site.

But, as is typical with you, you just picked the part of my reply you could defend (does that mean you agreed with the rest??? From now on I'll take your silence as tacit agreement!). I'd like to see your reply to my allegations that the Mayor and Governor are equally as culpable, if not more so. Surely the doomsday scenario painted for NO in a Cat 5 storm was well known. These two practitioners of liberal governance are largely responsible, regardless of how you look at it, for the failure to evacuate their city. They blew it big time -- but liberals either can't or don't want to see that. It's much easier to blow a whistle and point the finger.

[TIES2]

Again, 11 pm warning issued. And you know what? All the white folks with cars or $$$ were able to get out. It was just the poorest of the poor, with an occassional fool thrown in, who stayed.

David --

You're wrong here. All day Saturday the roadways were jammed with cars heading out of town. In fact, traffic was probably heavier on Saturday than Sunday. Again, perhaps these people knew something the Mayor and Governor did not. And you're wrong about the fools, too. There were quite a few people who remained behind including far more tourists than you would imagine (who do you think were getting beaten up and raped????) And because the city is full of the poorest of the poor, it increases the burden on the Mayor and Governor to assure their safety. Again, they needed to start evacuating well in advance of the 24 hour bell. They chose not to. No one made that decision for them. They, and they alone, made the colossal error in judgement.