I Can't Resist

[TIES2]

Seems like all you libs are nothing more than pyschological poster kid candidates (especially you, David! :roll: )

read on...

It's not uncommon for the Federal Emergency Management Agency — and whoever is in charge at the time — to catch blame in the messy aftermath of disaster.

It happened after Hugo hit South Carolina in 1989 and Andrew struck Florida in 1992.

After Andrew, Mikulski slammed the agency for a "pathetically sluggish" response, and on the ground, Dade County emergency director Kathleen Hale famously summed up the frustration felt throughout the stricken areas when she cried, "Where the hell is the cavalry?"

"There is nothing more powerful than the urge to blame," said Eric Dezenhall, a crisis-management consultant who helps corporate leaders and other prominent figures try to repair tattered images. "It happens every time. It is a deeply embedded archetype in the human mind."

He said the Brown episode is playing out in classic fashion.

"You can follow the steps," he said. "First, outrage. Second, the headline: 'What went wrong?' Third, the telltale memo that supposedly suggests somebody knew and did nothing. I just don't find this to be unique at all."

Brown, a 50-year-old lawyer, in some ways is an easy target.

The former head of the International Arabian Horse Association, Brown had no background in disaster relief when old college friend and then-FEMA Director Joe Allbaugh hired him to serve as the agency's general counsel in 2001.

"There is a Jay Leno-esque comic undertone to his background," said Dezenhall. "It sort of conjures up a who's-on-first kind of thing."

But the dim view of Brown's qualifications by senators seems to have emerged only in hindsight. Members of both parties seemed little troubled by his background at 2002 Senate hearings that led to his confirmation as deputy FEMA chief.

Indeed, Democratic Sen. Joseph Lieberman (news, bio, voting record) of Connecticut, who led those hearings, called Brown's long-ago stint as assistant city manager in Edmond, Okla., a "particularly useful experience" because he had responsibility for local emergency services.

As FEMA chief, Brown has pressed for greater attention to natural disaster planning, including strategies for a major hurricane in New Orleans, and he has had to contend with cuts to FEMA's operating budget while more attention was paid to fighting terrorism.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[myhometown]

Yeah, that makes it right.

[TIES2]

Yeah, that makes it right.

No, but it certainly puts all the whining in the proper perspective!

[HeldUp]

I Can't Resist
Maybe you should.

[borntorun0102]

As FEMA chief, Brown has pressed for greater attention to natural disaster planning, including strategies for a major hurricane in New Orleans, and he has had to contend with cuts to FEMA's operating budget while more attention was paid to fighting terrorism. [/COLOR]

[mhafinancial]

"There is nothing more powerful than the urge to blame," said Eric Dezenhall, a crisis-management consultant who helps corporate leaders and other prominent figures try to repair tattered images. "It happens every time. It is a deeply embedded archetype in the human mind."

"There is a Jay Leno-esque comic undertone to his background," said Dezenhall. "It sort of conjures up a who's-on-first kind of thing."


Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff and FEMA director Michael Brown make headway...

Chertoff: All I'm tryin' to find out is what's the guy's name in charge of food and water.
Brown: Oh, no, wait a minute, don't switch 'em around. What is in charge of evacuation.
Chertoff: I'm not askin' you who's in charge of evacuation.
Brown: Who is on food and water.
Chertoff: I don't know!
Brown: He's in charge of media spin...now we're not talkin' 'bout him.
Chertoff: Now, how did I get on media spin?
Brown: You mentioned his name!
Chertoff: If I mentioned the media spin guy's name, who did I say is in charge of media spin?
Brown: No...Who's in charge of food and water.
Chertoff: Never mind food and water, I wanna know what's the guy's name in charge of media spin.
Brown: No, What's in charge of evacuation.
Chertoff: I'm not askin' you who's in charge of evacuation!
Brown: Who's in charge of food and water.
Chertoff: I don't know!
Brown: He's in charge of media spin.
Chertoff: Aaah! Would you please stay on media spin and don't go off it?
Brown: What was it you wanted?
Chertoff: Now who's in charge of media spin?
Brown: Now why do you insist on putting Who in charge of media spin?
Chertoff: Why? Who am I putting over there?
Brown: Yes. But we don't want him there.
Chertoff: What's the guy's name in charge of media spin?
Brown: What is in charge of evacuation.
Chertoff: I'm not askin' you who's in charge of evacuation.
Brown: Who's in charge of food and water.
Chertoff: I don't know.
Brown & Chertoff: MEDIA SPIN!!
Chertoff: You got someone in charge of fixing the levees?
Brown: Oh yes!
Chertoff: The guy's name?
Brown: Why.
Chertoff: I don't know, I just thought I'd ask you.
Brown: Well, I just thought I'd tell you...

[mhafinancial]

[COLOR=Blue]It's not uncommon for the Federal Emergency Management Agency — and whoever is in charge at the time — to catch blame in the messy aftermath of disaster.

It happened after Hugo hit South Carolina in 1989 and Andrew struck Florida in 1992.

Borh occuring under Daddy Bush.

The apple sure hasn't fallen far.

And speaking of apples falling far, how about crabapple Babs, who is an embarrassment to American grandmas everywhere:

Barbara Bush said: "Almost
everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to
Houston."

Then she added: "What I’m hearing which is sort of
scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is
so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."

Yeah, Barabara, it's working really friggin' great, you old cow.

[HeldUp]

Third base!

[mhafinancial]

Oh, and Ties, you left out the beginning of the article:

WASHINGTON - He's been called an idiot, an incompetent and worse. The vilification of federal disaster chief Michael Brown, emerging as chief scapegoat for whatever went wrong in the government's response to Hurricane Katrina, has ratcheted into the stratosphere. Democratic members of Congress are taking numbers to call for his head.


"I would never have appointed such a person," said New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton.

"Let's bring in someone who is a professional," urged Sen. Barbara Mikulski (news, bio, voting record), D-Md.

A more visceral indictment came from closer to the calamity. Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson Parish near New Orleans, said the bureaucracy "has murdered people in the greater New Orleans area."

"Take whatever idiot they have at the top of whatever agency and give me a better idiot," he told CBS. "Give me a caring idiot. Give me a sensitive idiot. Just don't give me the same idiot."

Republican Sen. Trent Lott (news, bio, voting record) of Mississippi, just back from a week surveying damage in his home state, allowed that "mistakes are being made" but tried to counsel restraint Tuesday as calls for Brown's removal escalated. But even Lott displayed some of the potent emotions spawned by the horrific conditions on the Gulf Coast.

"If somebody said, `You pick somebody to hammer,' I don't know who I'd pick," he told reporters. "I did threaten to physically beat a couple of people in the last couple of days, figuratively speaking."

[mhafinancial]

FEMA Memo for rescue workers... forget about reality, just tell a nice story:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0907051fema1.gif
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0907051fema2.gif

[TIES2]

Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine, whine....

At least you lived up to my expectations

[TIES2]

Maybe you should.

Not a snawball's chnace in hel!

[mhafinancial]

Not a snawball's chnace in hel!
You really need to do the Jello shooters on the weekends only.

[mhafinancial]

And you know what ladies? I have no idea why I am arguing with you. You see, 72% of the American public is not happy with the response to the disaster's aftermath. Rasmussen Poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Katrina.htm) And the vast majority of that 72% either already realizes or will that the buck stops in the White House, which is why you have many Republican lawmakers calling for inquiries into the response. They know they are up for re-election while the President is not.

Whether or not the city and state coulda shoulda woulda gotten more people out prior to the storm hitting, they didn't. And what people saw was a Mayor asking for help. Reporters coming into the city asking where the food and water was. The tales of rapes and fights and fires and looting, and where were the feds. And the party in charge of the party always suffers. And it is long overdue.

If this was a WMD that went off in New Orleans, the government's response was abyssmal. This from the President who conned 52% of voters into thinking he made them safer.

So continue to believe in the Tooth Fairy and Brer Rabbit and the wonderful President we have. That's cool. 72% of the nation knows your boy and his gang that couldn't shoot straight f'd it up, just as they have f'd up Iraq and the hunt for Bin Laden. Just as they have f'd up the federal budget. Just as they have f'd up our standing in the international community. It will take longer for this country to recover from what this President has done than for New Orleans to recover from Katrina.

So rant, rave, call me names, tell me how naive I am, and how it is all Clinton's fault. But on this topic I am done. I am sure we will find more to spar on as time goes by.

[HeldUp]

Not a snawball's chnace in hel!
What in the hell is a snawball? Wait, I don't really want to know... :roll:

[admiralkosmos]

Borh occuring under Daddy Bush.

The apple sure hasn't fallen far.

And speaking of apples falling far, how about crabapple Babs, who is an embarrassment to American grandmas everywhere:

Barbara Bush said: "Almost
everyone I’ve talked to says we're going to move to
Houston."

Then she added: "What I’m hearing which is sort of
scary is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is
so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you
know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this (she
chuckles slightly) is working very well for them."

Yeah, Barabara, it's working really friggin' great, you old cow.

You're right - patrician dirt bag. Let's rip those pearls off the cow and put her on the floor of the Astrodome in a cot next to all the underprivileged. It's the detached arrogance of the Bushes that has always made them unAmerican.

[imabrucefan]

Yep, Marie Antoinette's got nothing on her.

Well, you can see Georgie got it honest.

[myhometown]

Barbara probably can't understand why they all didn't hop into their SUV's and escape the hurricane's wrath at their vacation homes.

[mhafinancial]

http://www.buzzflash.com/wahl/05/09/images/06wahl.jpg

[TIES2]

You really are a pathetic lot. Mistakes, big mistakes, were made up and down the line on both sides of the political divide, from the mayor of New Orleans clear though to the President. We all know this. But, regardless of how many mistakes were made, and who made them, it would not necessarily affect the aftermath of this storm. Even if helped showed up within an hour it would not have stopped the levees from breaking. It would not have changed the total number of people caught in the midst of this unprecedented, though not unanticipated, disaster.

Regardless, you would still be faced with the need to house 100s of thousands of displaced citizens. You would still be faced with the level of destruction you see. You'd still be faced with a city that is now uninhabitable and will remain so for quite some time.

There are major lessons to be learned here and one of the biggest ones is what to do with your lower income population, the elderly, the infirm and others who may not have the means to heed evacuation orders. This is not a problem unique to New Orleans. Any major metropolitan area threatened by such a storm would have the same issues (Miami, Tampa, Galveston, Jacksonville, Charleston and the list goes on). While living in Florida I experienced numerous evacuation orders. Local shelters were set-up to handle the needs of those who had neither the monetary or transportation neeeded to evacuate, but I can never, ever remember any full scale attempt, whatsoever, by local, state or federal officals, to provide broadscale evacuation options to make sure people were shuttled to shelter facilities far removed from the projected paths of the storms. It just never happened.

And while Barbara Bush's comments are indeed inappropriate, the reality is, I'm guilty of such thinking myself. In general, I have very strong feelings about people who do not heed evacuation orders. Clearly those who are able to leave and do not, should not expect the Coast Guard or anyone else to come rushing to their aid the moment they wave a white flag. It's irresponsible for these people to endanger themselves and their families. As a taxpayer, I should not have to foot the bill for the stupidity of others. Those with means should be presented with a bill for their rescue, especially if they had the means to leave and chose not to.

Despite feeling this way (and I still feel this way), this storm has made me realize it was not necessarily a lack of desire to heed the orders (though often that is the case) but a lack of means. And that's a serious problem that needs to be addresed at the local and state level. The failure of local governments to provide the means for escape is irresponsible.

It is unfortunate that so many lessons must be learned the hard way.

The rest of you can continue to play the blame game. To me, it's just more of the same whining I have grown accustomed to since last November's election. I've long lost count, but the finger pointing,calls for impeachment and the rolling of heads is truly pathetic.

[TIES2]

What in the hell is a snawball? Wait, I don't really want to know... :roll:

It's a southern snowball!

[myhometown]

Spin it however you like, even his daddy said it, "the buck stops with the President."
What is truly pathetic is the perfomance of this administration. You would have to be a moron to complain about the issues you mention above. My major complaint is if I can see people in obvious need sitting outside the Superdome, how hard is it to drop food & water to them? Cause a stampede?? Drown them in supplies (no pun intended). No stampedes then. If I can see a mother on CNN holding a lethargic child in obvious need of nourishment, why wouldn't my President kick some FEMA a** and make something happen? You can be damn sure if we were all praising the level of federal response to the disaster, you blind sheep would be right there claiming George was responsible.

[TIES2]

Spin it however you like, even his daddy said it, "the buck stops with the President."
What is truly pathetic is the perfomance of this administration. You would have to be a moron to complain about the issues you mention above. My major complaint is if I can see people in obvious need sitting outside the Superdome, how hard is it to drop food & water to them? Cause a stampede?? Drown them in supplies (no pun intended). No stampedes then. If I can see a mother on CNN holding a lethargic child in obvious need of nourishment, why wouldn't my President kick some FEMA a** and make something happen? You can be damn sure if we were all praising the level of federal response to the disaster, you blind sheep would be right there claiming George was responsible.

I'm right there with you on this. In my post last Thursday I expressed my angst over the slowness with which help was forthcoming. I could not understand why these people had to stand around for days without assistance and why no one was coming to their aid. I'm not saying anyone did a good job here.

And I do understand that the majority who were trapped were trapped because they had no way out. And the reality is they had no way out because their local and state government did not provide a way out.

And I do not care what you think, those who have the means to evacuate in the face of such a storm and choose not to, for whatever reason, because they're macho, because they made it through a previous storm (if you won a multi-million dollar lottery, do you really think the odds would be in your favor that you'd win another???), because their fools, in many ways forfeit their right to rescue, in other words, they pretty much get what they deserve.

This is probably not the time to be having this debate. As I have said previously, the shining light, if there is one, is that people who were foolish enough to tempt fate once and survive (meaning those who had the option and means to leave but chose not to), typically are not foolish enough to make the same mistake again.

Still, it does leave the major problem of how to provide broadscale escape options for those without means. Even here I'm sure we will see significant changes in how this is handled in the future.

[bossmom]

actually, what i'm hearing is that it was the governor who has resisted to federalize the effort (i.e., grant the federal government authority and jurisdiction to handle the relief effort) and it was the LA dept of homeland security (not federal) that requested the red cross to not deliver food & water to the superdome & convention center so as not to create a "magnet" (their word not mine) for people to go to

i also saw an interview with the governor from yesterdy in which, after mayor nagin ordered mandatory evacuation using force, she said that although he had done that, she, as governor, would have to sign off on it and she had not done that and that she was having the waters tested to see if they were, in fact, contaminated or if it was just "louisiana water" (?????) - there has not been a sense of cohesive leadership from the various levels of government in this disaster and, imho, it seems to be stemming from the governor

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168644,00.html


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-09-07-katrina-responsibilities_x.htm?csp=36

STATE GOVERNMENT

When local resources are overtaxed, the state steps in with logistical help and manpower. The state's main resource is the National Guard, which is under the control of the governor. The state also is a source of matching funds that, combined with federal money, go to build levees.


What has happened since

Once looting broke out, there was a lag in getting troops to restore order.

AP
Kathleen Blanco, Aug. 27.

By Aug. 31, the state had activated 3,780 Guard troops, and others were on the way from other states. It would be two more days before a significant presence became visible in the city.

There was a delay while Blanco and the White House grappled over whether to turn over law enforcement authority to the federal government, and whether all Guard troops should be put under federal control — both of which the governor resisted.

i realize there are other points made in this article which suggest that there are other areas that have contributed to the response effort, however, i pointed these out because so many people on these boards are refusing to acknowledge that local & state government have any responsibility here -

the other problem i see with the federal gov't "just stepping in and taking over" is that, at that point, what kind of government do we have? so many are troubled by the efforts the government has taken post 9/11 (i.e., patriot act, the thought of federalizing airport security, etc.), however, in a time such as this, they are the same ones asking "where was the federal government?" you can't have it both ways

i don't really have time to be involved here, but i'm as frustrated as the next guy with the fact that people have had to suffer through such a horrible disaster and at the fact that so many people just want to put blame in one place and are so quick to blame the federal gov't - in my state, we live with the threat of a major earthquake happening at any time and without warning - i want to know that my local & state governments are prepared to provide the necessary assistance while awaiting federal assistance - i don't think it is unreasonable to expect your local & state governments to be the primary responsible parties in times of disaster -

[myhometown]

I disagree. In a disaster such as this, your local govt. especially would be in disarray.
And the "magnet" item is laughable. How were people to get to this magnet? Rafts??

[bossmom]

and i disagree because in a disaster such as this, they had warning and could have done much more before the hurricane's landfall and subsequent levee breach

and, fwiw, i agree that the "magnet" item is laughable - but again, it was state dept of homeland security that made that call

[myhometown]

Point taken.

[mhafinancial]

The problem with relying on local government during times of emergency or crisis is that they are the ones suffering and drowning and being irradiated, or burning or whatever, just as the rest of the population is suffering. The first responders, in a time of crisis, might choose to rescue family first. They might be cut off by a river that has crested or roads that are impassable. They might be dead. And the local governments might not have had the funding to supply the equipment needed to engage in heroic measure. In NO at least two police officers have committed suicide because of what they faced in their home town.

This is why we look to the feds. They supposedly have the equipment, have the personnel, or have the capacity to marshall the equipment and personnel from other states. When there is major destruction it might be all well and good to sit back when we are 1,000 miles away and complain how the local government should have taken care of it, but the reality is that until we have walked in their soggy boots we can't begin to imagine how dysfunctional local response teams could become.

[LesterX]

^ Exactly, David. Not to mention that despite the false claim made around here that FEMA is merely a "back-end" agency, it is in fact FEMA's job to help local and state entities prepare for and respond to disaster, not just recover from it. From FEMA's strategic plan:

Mission: Lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to, and recover from disasters.

...

Goal 1. Reduce loss of life and property.

FEMA will work with its partners to plan, mitigate, and prepare when the opportunity to reduce loss of life and property is greatest—before disasters strike. FEMA will ensure that mitigation and preparedness plans are in place for both catastrophic and non-catastrophic disasters, and will work with Federal agencies, States, Territories, Tribal Nations, local governments, and first responders to assess and build capability.

...

Mitigation and Preparedness Planning
Objective 1.2
Ensure that the Nation’s most vulnerable areas are covered by emergency management plans that can be implemented.

...

Partner’s Capabilities
Objective 1.3
Ensure the capabilities of Federal, State, Territorial, Tribal, local, and other partners are in place to plan and prepare for disasters.

www.fema.gov

[BruceNut]

I disagree. In a disaster such as this, your local govt. especially would be in disarray.



Im so torn in responding that I dont agree because the NYC local Govt. didnt break down after 9/11. But NYC wasnt flooded.
Just before Katrina hit the NO Mayor had people evacuate to the Superdome. Everything that happened after Katrina hit was just one mistake after another. That damn levey breaking was just the nail in the coffin so to speak. Everyone knew it would break. It had been predicted in all the mock scenarios. Its all very sad. No clear cut "the levey broke now we do this this this" plan ever seemed to be put forth.
I grieve for the people.
Its all very sad.
:(

[TIES2]

i don't really have time to be involved here, but i'm as frustrated as the next guy with the fact that people have had to suffer through such a horrible disaster and at the fact that so many people just want to put blame in one place and are so quick to blame the federal gov't - in my state, we live with the threat of a major earthquake happening at any time and without warning - i want to know that my local & state governments are prepared to provide the necessary assistance while awaiting federal assistance - i don't think it is unreasonable to expect your local & state governments to be the primary responsible parties in times of disaster -


I think you've hit the proverbial nail on the head.

The "without warning" aspect for those living in earthquake prone areas is just another one of these disasters we have been promised will happen. Imagine a magnitude 9.0 or better centered around LA or SF during rush hour: roadways buckling, collapsed or severely compromised overpassess and other elevated roadways; buildings collapsing, electrical services disrupted; fires due to eruptions in gas lines... injuries due to falling glass, rubble, etc.

It's a nightmarish scene no matter how you look at it. My Hometown has a point when he says local services will be in disarray; you are also right; however, in expecting local and state government to do what they can until the Feds or other help arrives.

But such a scenario will be no less of a nightmare than what we are facing with Katrina right now, regardless of how well prepared local, state and federal emergency services are.

And the finger pointing will be ever bit as brutal.

[bossmom]

Originally posted by mahfinancial
The problem with relying on local government during times of emergency or crisis is that they are the ones suffering and drowning and being irradiated, or burning or whatever, just as the rest of the population is suffering. The first responders, in a time of crisis, might choose to rescue family first. They might be cut off by a river that has crested or roads that are impassable. They might be dead. And the local governments might not have had the funding to supply the equipment needed to engage in heroic measure. In NO at least two police officers have committed suicide because of what they faced in their home town.

This is why we look to the feds. They supposedly have the equipment, have the personnel, or have the capacity to marshall the equipment and personnel from other states. When there is major destruction it might be all well and good to sit back when we are 1,000 miles away and complain how the local government should have taken care of it, but the reality is that until we have walked in their soggy boots we can't begin to imagine how dysfunctional local response teams could become.

i understand that, and that is where state government should step in and, if its too much for them to handle, not only send the president a letter telling him as much, but actully hand over authority to the federal government to handle the situation, including, federalizing authority over the guard

again, i go back to the fact that this disaster came with ample warning and, because of that, it would seem that the responsiblity for evacuation of the citizens of this state, especially those without means to independently evacuate, prior to landfall and levee breach would sit with local and state government

here is an article in which mayor nagin states that even the buildings cannot withstand a cat 3, 4 or 5 hurricane - so, forget the levee breach, even if that hadn't happened, the damage still would've been huge and the people still wouldn't have been evacuated

http://thepoliticalteen.net/2005/09/06/naginstartsblaming

NAGIN: Look, I’ll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you’ve ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city’s history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens.

And I don’t know what else I could do, other than to tell them that it’s a mandatory evacuation. And if they stayed, make sure you have a frigging ax in your home, where you can bust out the roof just in case the water starts flowing.

And as a last resort, once this thing is above a category 3, there are no buildings in this city to withstand a category 3, a category 4 or a category 5 storm, other than the Superdome. That’s where we sent people as a shelter of last resort. When that filled up, we sent them to the Convention Center. Now, you tell me what else we could have done.

what else they could've done was organize a better evacuation system for those without means to get out themselves before landfall and provide a better supply of necessities at the superdome and convention center as well as security - and that is jmho

oops - i forgot to quote mhafinancial

[TIES2]

^ Exactly, David. Not to mention that despite the false claim made around here that FEMA is merely a "back-end" agency, it is in fact FEMA's job to help local and state entities prepare for and respond to disaster, not just recover from it. From FEMA's strategic plan:

Mission: Lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to, and recover from disasters.

...

Goal 1. Reduce loss of life and property.

FEMA will work with its partners to plan, mitigate, and prepare when the opportunity to reduce loss of life and property is greatest—before disasters strike. FEMA will ensure that mitigation and preparedness plans are in place for both catastrophic and non-catastrophic disasters, and will work with Federal agencies, States, Territories, Tribal Nations, local governments, and first responders to assess and build capability.

...

Mitigation and Preparedness Planning
Objective 1.2
Ensure that the Nation’s most vulnerable areas are covered by emergency management plans that can be implemented.

...

Partner’s Capabilities
Objective 1.3
Ensure the capabilities of Federal, State, Territorial, Tribal, local, and other partners are in place to plan and prepare for disasters.

www.fema.gov

Okay, so next time disaster strikes, whether it's another 911, Katrina, or what have you, let's just have the locals sit it out and wait until the Feds arrive????? You'll hear a collective roar louder than what you're hearing now. And with good reason!

Imagine 911 if the NYPD and NYFD just sat back waiting for FEMA and friends to come to the rescue. Can't do it, can you?

But, since it obviously suits your mission of the moment to excuse the locals so you can blame it on the feds, that's one thing. But you and David need to be a bit more realistic and get a grasp on reality. Yes, there is certainly a chance that local services will be disrupted, no one is denying this, but rare are the circumstances when all local services will be disrupted.

There were certainly response teams in and around New Orleans that could have responded.

The Feds definitely play a role, but it's a coordinated joint effort, not one versus the other.

[TIES2]

The problem with relying on local government during times of emergency or crisis is that they are the ones suffering and drowning and being irradiated, or burning or whatever, just as the rest of the population is suffering. The first responders, in a time of crisis, might choose to rescue family first. They might be cut off by a river that has crested or roads that are impassable. They might be dead. And the local governments might not have had the funding to supply the equipment needed to engage in heroic measure. In NO at least two police officers have committed suicide because of what they faced in their home town.

This is why we look to the feds. They supposedly have the equipment, have the personnel, or have the capacity to marshall the equipment and personnel from other states. When there is major destruction it might be all well and good to sit back when we are 1,000 miles away and complain how the local government should have taken care of it, but the reality is that until we have walked in their soggy boots we can't begin to imagine how dysfunctional local response teams could become.

David,

Not exactly sure who you're pointing a finger at here, but my posts have pointed to the planning and execution that needed to take place before the first rain drops fell. I believe they call it prevention, as in, preventing loss of life by removing in advance as many people from harm's way as possible.

I'm sure there are many New Yorkers who would strongly disagree with your assessment of who should do what. Imagine NYC immediately following 911 with the PD and FD sitting around on their butts waiting for the Feds to arrive.

It's a joint responsibility. Even a child could see that. First responders are local (presumably because they are on site), the Feds follow. The locals respond to the extent they can until reinforcements arrive. Your argument suggesting otherwise is weak, but I understand why you have to make it. You can't put 100% of the blame on the feds if the locals share a portion of the burden.

[Flory Days]

There are major lessons to be learned here and one of the biggest ones is what to do with your lower income population, the elderly, the infirm and others who may not have the means to heed evacuation orders. This is not a problem unique to New Orleans. Any major metropolitan area threatened by such a storm would have the same issues (Miami, Tampa, Galveston, Jacksonville, Charleston and the list goes on). While living in Florida I experienced numerous evacuation orders. Local shelters were set-up to handle the needs of those who had neither the monetary or transportation neeeded to evacuate, but I can never, ever remember any full scale attempt, whatsoever, by local, state or federal officals, to provide broadscale evacuation options to make sure people were shuttled to shelter facilities far removed from the projected paths of the storms. It just never happened.

Despite feeling this way (and I still feel this way), this storm has made me realize it was not necessarily a lack of desire to heed the orders (though often that is the case) but a lack of means. And that's a serious problem that needs to be addresed at the local and state level. The failure of local governments to provide the means for escape is irresponsible.

It is unfortunate that so many lessons must be learned the hard way.

This portion of what you said sticks out to me. I am not taking the time to read the rest of this thread so forgive me if its been addressed.

Bingo. You correctly state the major problem of failing to make evactuation plans for those without the means to do so. You also chastise the failure of local governments to provide for means of escape.

Yet you wonder why people are quick to criticize the President for these failures and you do not accept those of us who want to blame him for these failures? Lets connect the dots.

Is Bush not the leader of our nation? As our leader, shouldn't he be concerned with the welfare of the least of our citizens? As you state, this problem is not unique to New Orleans. What, in Bush's actions, might lead you to believe the protection of the less fortunate of our nation is actually a priority to him? Federal spending cuts have shifted spending burdens to local governments. Where are local governments supposed to get the money for doing this? The anti-tax (read Republican party) philosophy is very successful at the state and local levels, despite the fact that those governments receive fewer federal funds.

The bottom line? The GOP philosophy (current head honcho Mr. Bush), by its actions does not make these needs a priority. And by its actions they never seem to learn these "major lessons". What is one to make of this, other than to presume they don't really care that much.

[mhafinancial]

David,

Not exactly sure who you're pointing a finger at here, but my posts have pointed to the planning and execution that needed to take place before the first rain drops fell. I believe they call it prevention, as in, preventing loss of life by removing in advance as many people from harm's way as possible.
In this case, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. Just stating that the locals are the ones suffering from the catastrophe, and depending on the severity of the catastrophe one might not be able to rely upon the locals. Each situation is different. Shake the paranoia, please.

I'm sure there are many New Yorkers who would strongly disagree with your assessment of who should do what. Imagine NYC immediately following 911 with the PD and FD sitting around on their butts waiting for the Feds to arrive.
Apples and oranges. In NYC, you were working with a small, finite, icrosomic geographic area. The whole sity was not crumbling or drowing. They didn't need, nor did they probably want the feds.

Now if it was a nuke that obliterated Manhattan and half of the other 4 boros, who would be there to respond? The NYPD?

It's a joint responsibility. Even a child could see that. First responders are local (presumably because they are on site), the Feds follow. The locals respond to the extent they can until reinforcements arrive. Your argument suggesting otherwise is weak, but I understand why you have to make it. You can't put 100% of the blame on the feds if the locals share a portion of the burden.
The locals did what they could with what they had to work with. You think otherwise. That's fine. But localities across the country have been hurt by the Bush budget cuts, both in terms of projects of a local nature not getting funded, in this case the levees, and less federal revenue dollars going to local and state governments than had previously been the case. Then when there are fewer services and the population starts screaming, the locals have to raise taxes to make ends meet. So the leadership in Washington gets to crow about how they have cut taxes (and increased the deficit to previously unknown heights), while the locals have to make up the difference by raising taxes.

Silly game if you ask me. Even a child can see that. One would think.

[myhometown]

ties, you crack me up. where were all these local response teams? chest high in water? i thought you were "insane" last week at the time it took for the feds to respond, yet you defend them at every turn. i don't care what the mayor should've done in preparation, my concern is with the events that took place (or didn't take place) in the days following the storm.

[bossmom]

more reason to cede authority to the federal government - something the governor of louisiana refused to do - in essence, she effectively and single-handedly did nothing by:

a) not having the means with which to handle the situation at the state government level; and

b) by refusing to cede authority to the federal government

[LesterX]

Okay, so next time disaster strikes, whether it's another 911, Katrina, or what have you, let's just have the locals sit it out and wait until the Feds arrive????? You'll hear a collective roar louder than what you're hearing now. And with good reason!

Imagine 911 if the NYPD and NYFD just sat back waiting for FEMA and friends to come to the rescue. Can't do it, can you?

But, since it obviously suits your mission of the moment to excuse the locals so you can blame it on the feds, that's one thing. But you and David need to be a bit more realistic and get a grasp on reality. Yes, there is certainly a chance that local services will be disrupted, no one is denying this, but rare are the circumstances when all local services will be disrupted.

There were certainly response teams in and around New Orleans that could have responded.

The Feds definitely play a role, but it's a coordinated joint effort, not one versus the other.

My grasp on reality is just fine, thank you. Nice rant, but it really has nothing to do with what I posted. Nowhere did I state that the local and state authorities should sit back and wait for FEMA to save the day. However, as has been pointed out repeatedly, it does not appear they had the resources or capability to handle the situation on their own, and it is the federal government's responsibility to bolster their efforts. It is you and others who are making this black/white distinction between the feds and the locals. I'm merely pointing out that the responsibility for ensuring that the locals are prepared also lies with the feds., so any failure at the local level is also a FEMA failure, based on their stated goals and objectives. And it is you who falsely claimed that FEMA is primarily a back-end agency in an effort to shift blame for the poor planning and implementation of an evacuation plan from the federal government and your beloved George Bush. Because, of course, that's what "suits your mission of the moment." Funny how these things can be viewed both ways.

[TIES2]

In this case, I am not pointing a finger at anyone. Just stating that the locals are the ones suffering from the catastrophe, and depending on the severity of the catastrophe one might not be able to rely upon the locals. Each situation is different. Shake the paranoia, please.


Apples and oranges. In NYC, you were working with a small, finite, icrosomic geographic area. The whole sity was not crumbling or drowing. They didn't need, nor did they probably want the feds.

Now if it was a nuke that obliterated Manhattan and half of the other 4 boros, who would be there to respond? The NYPD?


The locals did what they could with what they had to work with. You think otherwise. That's fine. But localities across the country have been hurt by the Bush budget cuts, both in terms of projects of a local nature not getting funded, in this case the levees, and less federal revenue dollars going to local and state governments than had previously been the case. Then when there are fewer services and the population starts screaming, the locals have to raise taxes to make ends meet. So the leadership in Washington gets to crow about how they have cut taxes (and increased the deficit to previously unknown heights), while the locals have to make up the difference by raising taxes.

Silly game if you ask me. Even a child can see that. One would think.

And it's rare that you will ever have an apples to apples comparison. And, trust me on this one, if a Nuke obliterates NYC there will be more mayhem than you or I can imagine. It will make all this look like a Sunday stroll in the park.

But you do make a good point. We would not want to pay the taxes it would take to address all of our infrastructure and planning needs. Yet, I suspect if you look at the budget for the city of NO and where the money has been spent over the past few years, you may wonder why the local government made the choices they did. Choices that in the aftermath of Katrina may look frivolous versus committing dollars to what we now know has turned out to be desperately needed infrastructure repair.

But, using your own reasoning, why bother funding local PD and FD if it's the Feds job to ride to the rescue?

[dhenise]

My grasp on reality is just fine, thank you. Nice rant, but it really has nothing to do with what I posted. Nowhere did I state that the local and state authorities should sit back and wait for FEMA to save the day. However, as has been pointed out repeatedly, it does not appear they had the resources or capability to handle the situation on their own, and it is the federal government's responsibility to bolster their efforts. It is you and others who are making this black/white distinction between the feds and the locals. I'm merely pointing out that the responsibility for ensuring that the locals are prepared also lies with the feds., so any failure at the local level is also a FEMA failure, based on their stated goals and objectives. And it is you who falsely claimed that FEMA is primarily a back-end agency in an effort to shift blame for the poor planning and implementation of an evacuation plan from the federal government and your beloved George Bush. Because, of course, that's what "suits your mission of the moment." Funny how these things can be viewed both ways.

There is quite a bit of information now coming out. First of all ......... Louisiana DID/DOES have a plan ....... actually a charter. The plan spells out clear steps for both local and state governments in the event of a hurricane. Had the plan been executed, there wouldn't be all this mudslinging. Well ........ I'm sure the libs would find another topic to rally around. :p

Evacuation was a key component .......... but ole Ray wanted Greyhounds instead of the 700+ school buses that are now under water.
Then FEMA gets all the heat for no water and no food. Check the Red Cross website. It was there .......... ready to be delivered. The state government made the call .......... "we don't want the Superdome or the Convention Center to become magnets". I guess this is where I could throw in my own mudslinging, but I'll wait till those folks have a chance to explain. Since all of those people have been relocated, I can see what they were thinking ......... but short term ....... it certainly wasn't the right decision.
And then there is the war of words about Bush not giving NO and Louisiana enough billions. 100% more than the previous administration doesn't matter ....... "it's his fault ....... the buck stops here". Fair enough. Do a search and find out what exactly WAS done with the billions that the state DID receive. I don't think a penny of it was used for actual repair/fortification. Local and state politicians used it for pet construction projects. Why? I guess you'll have to ask them.
So everyone is blaming FEMA, Bush ........ it was race driven, yada yada yada. Sorry, this was about elected officials not doing their jobs. And David .......... those folks happened to be democrats. :scratch: