Allen Iverson [Archive] - LiveDaily Community

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 11th, 2006, 10:42 AM

I guess he is making around $18 million this year. He's not worth that kind of money IMO. I've read that Boston, Minnesota, and Denver are the top candidates at this point, and that Pierce and Garnett are both pushing for him to come on their teams. Being a Celtics, I would be happy as they would be showing they want to be a good team(it doesn't seem like their management has cared too much over the last decade), so free agents may want to sign with them. I have mixed emotions, but I'd support it if it happened.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 17th, 2006, 08:46 AM

The latest rumors are either Denver signing him, or possibly the Clippers in a 5-player trade. I'm surprised it's taken this long.

pinky

Dec 17th, 2006, 08:26 PM

When a team has benched their star player and announced that he WILL be traded, other teams may be wary of going for him; obviously, there are problems with Iverson. Besides that, the owner's strategy was stupid: everyone knows they want to get rid of him, but they're not just going to give him away for nothing, and the other owners were going to try to get him for nothing.

Great player, but a major attitude problem.

db44

Dec 18th, 2006, 08:02 AM

Claire would know. Philly loves their problem children. T.O. was spitting mad this weekend, afterall. :p

The interesting thing with A.I. though is by all acounts and the stats, he is the ideal teammate. The guy scores, but he also is averaging seven-plus assists this year, and is just under seven for his career. Kobe over his career dishes out 4.5 helpers per game, and Melo this year as the lead scorer (enjoy your month off! :p I'm not even a Knicks fan) is just over four.

The same goes for everything you hear in the lockerroom. He is a good guy to his peers. Add things like paying for the funeral of a guy shot for a replica of his jersey, and there are elements of a likeable person there.

His issue is with authority, he knows he's good and he doesn't want to be coached. He'll help people from the streets, but he'll take the fine rather than go to a mandatory event for big-wigs and season ticket holders.

The real question is what coach can he get along with. I thought the Heat deal would be amazing: On the court with Shaq when he gets healthy and Wade and under one of the coaches he'd probably get along with? Wow.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 18th, 2006, 01:56 PM

According to an article on AOL today, every team except two has asked about him. I wonder who the two teams are that haven't. I have a feeling that he'll be traded shortly after New Year's, and it will probably involve 3-5 teams.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 18th, 2006, 02:01 PM

The real question is what coach can he get along with. I thought the Heat deal would be amazing: On the court with Shaq when he gets healthy and Wade and under one of the coaches he'd probably get along with? Wow.
Who would they have to get rid of though? Shaq is probably one of the top 5 or 6 centers ever, but he's just not the same these days. They'd have three big stars but two of them are becoming old, so I don't think it would be the best decision. They likely can't afford it either.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 19th, 2006, 06:39 AM

http://sports.aol.com/nba/story/_a/heat-pull-out-of-bidding-for-76ers/20061218200209990001?cid=1690
It looks like the Heat aren't one of the contenders anymore.

pinky

Dec 19th, 2006, 09:17 PM

It's Denver.

And, after all the complaints about AI's behavior that have been made, it seems no one in Philadelphia is happy tonight, Allen included.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 20th, 2006, 07:57 AM

I'm not sure who got the better of the trade at this point. Iverson has a career field goal % of only 42% and free throw % of 78%(good for a regular player, but not too great for a guard). After looking at his stats, I would definitely consider him the most overrated player in basketball. It's only because today's basketball lacks the truely great players that he's even talked about. He couldn't lead Philadelphia very far, and I question whether he'll be able to lead Denver much further.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 20th, 2006, 08:01 AM

there are elements of a likeable person there.

According to my local paper, he made a never-released rap album which was considered offensive. A rap album being offensive? Why am I not surprised? He also has gotten in trouble with the law. He may have some good qualities, but he also has bad ones as well.

db44

Dec 20th, 2006, 08:43 AM

Well we knew there'd be no pleasing you unless he was traded to Tanzania or something. :rolleyes: You're pretty much the guy Steve Francis was talking about when he responded to George Karl and the fight.

Afterall, you wish Larry Bird a happy birthday and seemingly admire him, despite an early hatred and phyisical confrontations with Magic Johnson... Things which make Martin Luther King Jr. and Jackie Robinson unworthy of respect somehow are okay with you where Larry Bird is concerned? nevermind your accusations of King are by your admission rumors. Now why could that be that Bird doesn't fall into the same rules?

Care to ellaborate on your posts, besides hearsay (had to use that word because of Momma A.I.)? I remember hearing parts of the album, and don't if it was offensive or violence that was the question. As for trouble with the law, are you talking about his days on the streets or the domestic violence accusations, which I believe his wife dropped and were proven unfounded anyway?

And to Claire, I can understand some of the dislike for the deal, no matter what happened Philly fans were likely to balk at it (kind of like some trade deadline deals in baseball... Sometimes when your hand is tipped, you can't get what you believe is fair market value). I haven't seen Iverson's thoughts yet, what have you read?

I don't think the deal was too bad for Philly. They got one player who's contract ends at the end of the season (dropping long and large salaries was part of the goal for Philly, no?) and they got a very good point guard. Two first-round picks can't be too bacd, although they aren't likely to be lottery picks, so that is borderline.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 20th, 2006, 09:38 AM

pinky

Dec 20th, 2006, 02:52 PM

Dave, I think the sadness around Philly is mostly because of the unrealized potential. AI should have had a championship here, and it never happened. And whatever his faults, no one can deny that Iverson is an incredibly exciting player to watch.

It's been a fun ride, and we're going to miss the thrills.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 21st, 2006, 06:31 AM

Afterall, you wish Larry Bird a happy birthday and seemingly admire him, despite an early hatred and phyisical confrontations with Magic Johnson... Things which make Martin Luther King Jr. and Jackie Robinson unworthy of respect somehow are okay with you where Larry Bird is concerned? nevermind your accusations of King are by your admission rumors. Now why could that be that Bird doesn't fall into the same rules?
I've never said I admire Larry Bird as a person. There was one instance where he was dominating Julius Irving. He bragged about it, and I guess Irving swung at him after that. It's not Bird who asked for violence so I can't blame him on that, but I certainly don't promote him gloating to another player. He also got in a fight in a bar once(not sure whose fault it was though). He was supposed to be very close friends with Magic, so I don't know what you're talking about regarding hatred and confrontations. I did idolize him growing up. Regardless of what any Jordan fans say, I consider him the greatest basketball player ever, and he could do things a player like Iverson could only dream of. Basketball is my favorite sport and the Celtics are my favorite team. I will always admire him for the greatness he brought to Boston, but you'll never hear me say I admire him as a person because I don't know enough about him.

My statements regarding King are not rumors. They are claims made by several sources just as the mainstream media's claims regarding King are claims made by many sources. They could easily be true and there is supposed to be a tape that exposes him which a judge has blocked from being released. I wonder why they wouldn't release it. Your own claims were about Robinson using violence when he could. I'd say the same about any individual. He had his good and bad qualities, but obviously the situation is entirely different from Bird's. Using violence in self-defense is okay, but using it in "retaliation" is not.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 21st, 2006, 06:38 AM

Care to ellaborate on your posts, besides hearsay (had to use that word because of Momma A.I.)? I remember hearing parts of the album, and don't if it was offensive or violence that was the question. As for trouble with the law, are you talking about his days on the streets or the domestic violence accusations, which I believe his wife dropped and were proven unfounded anyway?
In 1997, he was arrested for possession of marijuana and carrying a concealed weapon. This is according to an article in my local paper. Civil rights groups and Stern himself criticized Iverson for offensive lyrics in his rap album. I'm not sure if it's the racism or violence that is so often promoted in rap music, so I'll have to do more research on the subject.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 21st, 2006, 06:47 AM

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/allen-iverson-40-bars-lyrics.html
There's nothing offensive about "40 Bars", right? It's more offensive than most rap songs, if that says anything.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 21st, 2006, 06:51 AM

And whatever his faults, no one can deny that Iverson is an incredibly exciting player to watch.
What do you consider exciting? From what I've seen of him, he's a very average passer.

pinky

Dec 22nd, 2006, 07:44 PM

Steals. Quickness. Clutch shots. And one VERY impressive move on Michael when Allen was a rookie. (It's been shown on local tv in Philly many times in the last week or two!)

pinky

Dec 22nd, 2006, 07:48 PM

Larry Bird as the greatest basketball player ever? :greyno:

You have NO historical perspective. Wilt, Kareem, and Michael will all ALWAYS be recognized by first name only. Can't say that about Bird.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 23rd, 2006, 09:12 AM

Larry Bird as the greatest basketball player ever? :greyno:

You have NO historical perspective. Wilt, Kareem, and Michael will all ALWAYS be recognized by first name only. Can't say that about Bird.
You can have 10 different people say who the greatest are, and they will all give different names. Usually given is Michael, Larry, Kareem, Magic, Russell, and Wilt. Larry is recognized by his first name, so I don't see why you claim otherwise. How that could make a player better, I'm still trying to figure out. He was a superior passer over Jordan, and Wilt couldn't hit his free throws at all. That would disqualify Wilt right there IMO. We can argue for days about this subject, but nobody is going to persuade me.

Larry Bird was one of the greatest free throw shooters ever, and he won the first 3 3-point contests. Great shooter, great passer, he hussled for the ball almost all the time, great clutch shooter. He was good at pretty much every aspect of basketball. He was relatively slow and couldn't jump very well, so many people thought he wouldn't mount to much. He made up for that with his intelligence, work ethic, and abilities. Bird:greatest player ever. Magic:second best ever. It's not a surprise that they were involved in the highest-rated game in basketball history(their college championship), and it was these two, starting in the 1984 finals(NOT MICHAEL), who led basketball into its first great period of popularity. Some Jordan fans try to give him the credit, but honest people know otherwise.

pinky

Dec 23rd, 2006, 11:15 AM

Maybe in Boston, and among Celts fans, he's referred to as simply "Larry" but for the rest of us, he's known by his full name, or just as Bird.

The others are known that way because of the fact that they are legends.

I'm not saying that Bird wasn't a great player, because he was. But I think there were better.

db44

Dec 24th, 2006, 06:50 AM

I guess you weren't little piece about the relationship between Magic (who works for TNT) and Bird. They spoke about how they didn't come to respect each other as people or like each other until they shot a commercial for McDonalds. They were not friends in college or when they entered the NBA.

Are you saying Jackie went looking for trouble? The Dodgers approached him about joining the team while he was... Content isn't the right word, but to some extent it is... playing in the Negro Leagues. He didn't asked to be spiked or have his ankles stepped on or be threatened or to have managers order their teams to attack him. He responded to what was thrown at him, just like Bird did according to you.

By the way, I hear the name Larry in the sense of basketball, and "Grandmama" comes to mind. LJ certainly wasn't the player Bird was, but between the character and his time in NY, he certainly comes to my mind first. Wilt and Kareem, yes they come to mind when their names are out there. I honestly can't say the same about Michael, but that's 'cause so many Michaels are out there. Depending on the time frame of the quote, I might for instance think Redd. But then, Jordan is known by so many other names, I think of him right away if I hear "MJ," "number 23" (in basketball at least. Mattingly ALWAYS comes to mind for me if the context isn't defined as basketball), or just "Jordan."

I'll concede the lyrics to you. They are offensive, but I'll condemn his life's circumstances before him. I will not concede anything about pot (which, although I don't smoke, I don't think should be illegal either), and I won't say anything about the gun... ESPN did a couple of pieces these last few weeks about athletes and their needs or desires to have guns and/or protect themselves. I'd rather see him get caught with an illegal gun than to see someone shoot someone else with a licensed weapon... Or stabbed a la Ty Cobb.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 24th, 2006, 08:04 AM

The others are known that way because of the fact that they are legends.
Are you basing how good a player is based on their reputation? I have heard all of those three players named by their first, last, and full name as well as anyone else. Which sources are you using that claim this? I tend to look at statistics and try to watch clips to determine who the greatest player is and I certainly don't base it on what other people say.

Wilt was a giant for his time. He had speed and his height. That was about it. Let's say he was a foot shorter. I wonder how good he'd be then. The difference is that Bird went up against people taller than him and could outrebound them. There's literally nothing that makes Chamberlain a better player. He couldn't hit his free throws, and that's pretty much the easiest shot there is. He could only hit inside shots.

Michael Jordan was definitely one of the greats as well. People have claimed he was better than Bird, but they don't give reasons. I've even heard one who referred to Jordan's 63-point game against Boston. One game does not make a player better. He was probably as good of a clutch shooter as Bird but he wasn't as good of a shooter. He was a better defensive player, but that's really the one advantage he had. Talking to some Jordan fans is like talking to a door, and not one has given a reason that made him better. He never won an NBA championship until Larry and Magic were out of their prime, and that's a reality a lot of Jordan fans can't accept. He did help the sport(not to the degree Larry and Magic did though), and it wasn't until he asked for $36 million(and he claims he plays for the love of the sport:o :o ) that basketball players' salaries really started to rise. He also put emphasis on the slam dunk, which has hurt the sport as well, so he hurt it as much as he helped it. Now, what made him a better player than Larry or Magic? I'm dying for an explanation.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 24th, 2006, 08:24 AM

I guess you weren't little piece about the relationship between Magic (who works for TNT) and Bird. They spoke about how they didn't come to respect each other as people or like each other until they shot a commercial for McDonalds. They were not friends in college or when they entered the NBA.

Are you saying Jackie went looking for trouble? The Dodgers approached him about joining the team while he was... Content isn't the right word, but to some extent it is... playing in the Negro Leagues. He didn't asked to be spiked or have his ankles stepped on or be threatened or to have managers order their teams to attack him. He responded to what was thrown at him, just like Bird did according to you.
I've read a bit on Bird before, but never read anything about him and Magic disrespecting each other. What were the reasons given? Disrespecting is much different from using violence, so I don't see why you're comparing the two.

I'd never heard anything about Robinson using violence until you said something, as I generally don't pay attention to celebrities' personal lives. From what you had said, he was given instructions not to use violence by his team, then they changed the rules and he used it afterwards. That's retaliation and not self-defense, so he's no better than the person who had originally used it. I believe that Larry was ahead of Irving 42-6 or some score similar, so rubbing it in is not called for. However, it was Irving who made the decision to use violence, not Bird. As for the bar fight, Larry was a very smart person(unlike Jordan's management career being a failure, Bird could actually coach) and that was around the time of the NBA finals, so I would think he didn't instigate it. I've read nothing that goes one way or the other. Robinson used violence in retaliation, while I've never read anything that says Bird's was not in self-defense. Two entirely different scenario's.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 24th, 2006, 08:26 AM

By the way, I hear the name Larry in the sense of basketball, and "Grandmama" comes to mind. LJ certainly wasn't the player Bird was, but between the character and his time in NY, he certainly comes to my mind first. Wilt and Kareem, yes they come to mind when their names are out there. I honestly can't say the same about Michael, but that's 'cause so many Michaels are out there. Depending on the time frame of the quote, I might for instance think Redd. But then, Jordan is known by so many other names, I think of him right away if I hear "MJ," "number 23" (in basketball at least. Mattingly ALWAYS comes to mind for me if the context isn't defined as basketball), or just "Jordan."
Once again, how does that make them a better player?

db44

Dec 26th, 2006, 10:12 AM

It doesn't make LJ a better player and I wouldn't make that claim. It does reflect though he doesn't have the name-recognition of Wilt or Julius or Kareem or Magic.

When Jackie was fighting back, it was usually when he was wronged in a game, so yes, it's still self-defense. Still, just the thougt of violence from certain pioneers makes them unworthy to you, yet Bird still isn't worthy of the scrutiny. Lovely.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 26th, 2006, 11:00 AM

It doesn't make LJ a better player and I wouldn't make that claim. It does reflect though he doesn't have the name-recognition of Wilt or Julius or Kareem or Magic.
Are you claiming that Julius Irving is a bigger name than Larry Bird? People like Magic, Kareem, and Wilt have names that aren't too common, while Larry is. Usually when Magic or Larry are brought up, the other one is as well, so I don't have any reason to believe one's more recognized than the other. Though I would say that Larry is a bigger star than Irving, and I don't think there's much competition.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 26th, 2006, 11:04 AM

When Jackie was fighting back, it was usually when he was wronged in a game, so yes, it's still self-defense. Still, just the thougt of violence from certain pioneers makes them unworthy to you, yet Bird still isn't worthy of the scrutiny. Lovely.
I don't know the exact cercumstances behind the fights Larry got in and neither do you, so I can't make a judgement. When a person swings at another person, the first reaction generally is to defend yourself, so I don't have a problem with that. That doesn't apply to Robinson, but it could possibly apply to Larry's case.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 28th, 2006, 07:40 AM

I think it would be hilarious if the Nuggets played worse while the 76ers player better. Especially after looking up his statistics, I think he's at least one of the most overrated players and is only talked about because there are so few legends around today. I wouldn't be surprised if they do play worse after this.

pinky

Dec 28th, 2006, 05:59 PM

You're entitled to your opinion.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 29th, 2006, 06:25 AM

You're entitled to your opinion.
You still haven't answered my question. How does recognition a player has make them a better player? How can a player like Chamberlain(who stunk at shooting free throws) be considered better than Larry or Magic was?

pinky

Dec 30th, 2006, 06:29 PM

You have it backwards, Colin. The recognition comes after the player has achieved greatness.

Stopanimalabuse

Dec 31st, 2006, 06:30 AM

You have it backwards, Colin. The recognition comes after the player has achieved greatness.
I don't understand why that's an issue. I don't have any reason to believe that those are more recognized and, even if they are, that doesn't make them better. It's also very hard to compare them. Bird would be more compared to Irving, Baylor, Malone, and other fowards. Jordan should be more compared to Johnson, Stockton, Cousy, West,and other guards. Jabaar should obviously be compared to Russell, Chamberlain, Mikan, O'Neal, and other centers. Comparing a guard to a center is almost like comparing the Babe to Cy Young. They're just too different.

pinky

Dec 31st, 2006, 08:12 PM

In that case, it's just about impossible to claim that any player is the best ever, as you've done.

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 1st, 2007, 10:10 AM

In that case, it's just about impossible to claim that any player is the best ever, as you've done.
I may be supporting hypocrisy to an extent, but Larry would have to be considered the best forward to ever play. What is even worse is those Jordan fans who claim he's the greatest athlete ever. Babe Ruth was far more dominant during his prime than Jordan ever was, so how he can be considered better is just ridiculous. How he can be considered a better athlete than Jim Thorpe or many of your great triathalon athletes is even worse. There's just no comparison, and you just simply can't make one.

pinky

Jan 1st, 2007, 10:17 AM

I may be supporting hypocrisy to an extent, but Larry would have to be considered the best forward to ever play.
Again, your opinion. Others would disagree, myself included.

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 1st, 2007, 10:34 AM

Again, your opinion. Others would disagree, myself included.
At first I thought you were claiming that Jordan is a better athlete than Thorpe. That scared me for a minute. Who are you referring to? Elgin Baylor? Karl Malone? Julius Irving? Pretty much every person who writes about basketball has said Larry is the best forward to ever play, so it's a pretty consistent belief. I don't recall one person who has claimed otherwise.

pinky

Jan 1st, 2007, 06:25 PM

Okay, from NBA.com's history page, I found the following statistics for a few of the 50 greatest players ever.

Bird:
G-897
FG%-.496
FT%-.886
Rebs-8,974
Asts-5,695
Stls-1,556
Pts-21,791
PPG-24.3

Magic:
G-906
FG%-.520
FT%-.848
Rebs-6,559
Asts-10,141
Stls-1,724
Pts-17,707
PPG-19.5

Wilt:
G-1,045
FG%-.540
FT%-.511
Rebs-23,924
Asts-4,643
Pts-31,419
PPG-30.1

Oscar:
G-1,040
FG%-.485
FT%-.838
Rebs-7,804
Asts-9,887
Pts-23,710
PPG-25.7

Now, I recognize that we're talking about different positions and different eras here, but I think you can make a good case for any of these other three players being better than Bird. Magic had a better FG% and nearly twice as many assists as Bird. One of the hallmarks of a truly great player is how much he improves the play of those around him. Assists are a pretty good measure of that.

As for Wilt and Oscar, the total points and PPG make a case for them.

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 2nd, 2007, 07:50 AM

Magic had a better FG% and nearly twice as many assists as Bird. One of the hallmarks of a truly great player is how much he improves the play of those around him. Assists are a pretty good measure of that.

As for Wilt and Oscar, the total points and PPG make a case for them.
Bird and Johnson will always be compared, but it was probably the greatest rivalry ever so that's expected. Larry was better in free throw percentage, 3-point percentage, rebounds, and points, while Magic was better in field goal percentage, steals, and assists. I'd say they're pretty even overall in stats. As far as assists are concerned, Larry is number 1 all-time among forwards, so 6.3 is quite amazing for a forward. Guards are at a huge advantage in that category, so it's hard to make a comparison there. Larry took the Celtics from the basement to first place(I believe the best record in basketball), while Magic had Kareem already. From what I have read, Larry was second in MVP voting his first 4 years and first during the next 3, so he was ahead of Magic for 7 straight seasons. If Len Bias hadn't died, it could have been even longer. I think you can say Larry also helped improve his team, and maybe even greater than Magic did.

I haven't seen enough of Chamberlain or Robertson to have a say. Chamberlain was a very poor free throw shooter. This is the easiest shot in basketball, and if you can't make 70% of your free throws, that pretty much disqualifies a person right there IMO. I can't say much for Robertson. Obviously he put up great statistics, but there's a lot more to basketball than just statistics. Bob Cousy considered Bird as the greatest player to play the game, and I believe Red Auerbach and John Havilecek had made similar comments. These are players who had played against the other legends and who obviously know what they're talking about. I've never heard statements made like that about Robertson.

pinky

Jan 2nd, 2007, 01:56 PM

And yet NBA.com mentioned Oscar Robertson as the player all others are compared to when it comes to their stats.

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 3rd, 2007, 07:04 AM

And yet NBA.com mentioned Oscar Robertson as the player all others are compared to when it comes to their stats.
He did put up great stats, there's no doubt about that, but that doesn't make him the best. Was he a good clutch shooter? Did he make his teammates better? How did his team perform during his time playing? Records show that the Royals weren't too great during Robertson's time. It was only when he had Kareem on his team that he won a Championship. Many of the other legends have won several championships. The Celtics improved by more than 30 games in Bird's first year, while Robertson never had close to that kind of impact. He also carried Indiana State to the championship game. How did Robertson perform at college?

db44

Jan 3rd, 2007, 08:57 AM

How can you argue against basketball historians when you admit not even knowing enough about Robertson?

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 3rd, 2007, 10:04 AM

How can you argue against basketball historians when you admit not even knowing enough about Robertson?
I'm not arguing against basketball historians. What statement did I make which shows I'm arguing against them? I'm simply saying that there are certain aspects that I tend to look at which others may or may not look at, and Robertson doesn't match up to Bird.

db44

Jan 3rd, 2007, 10:45 AM

But when you say you don't know about the others, you have no leg to stand on.

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 4th, 2007, 11:37 AM

But when you say you don't know about the others, you have no leg to stand on.
I didn't necessarily say Larry was better. I believe Bird helped his team more, but Robertson's stats were probably better overall. It can be very complicated to compare two players in different positions and in different era's.

pinky

Jan 5th, 2007, 10:21 PM

You called Bird the greatest player ever. That pretty much means you said he was better than Robertson.

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 7th, 2007, 09:16 AM

People repeatedly refer to the same statement I had made. Pinky has made two arguements which have flaws, but Dave hasn't said anything about that. One arguement is looking at players from different time periods. You could say that Robertson put up the best statistics of any player ever. However, he was playing against players who were much shorter. Chamberlain was considered a giant at the time, and today he'd be the common height for a center. Teams averaged around 120 points per game around that decade, and people like Russell and Chamberlain had no problem averaging 20 rebounds per game. That doesn't happen today, and hasn't happened lately either. From the 1960's to the 1980's, you'd have to lower his statistics by around two points and rebounds(maybe more), and one or maybe even two assists. There's always that chance Robertson would have performed better in the 1980's and Bird would have performed worse in the 1960's, but it's not likely.

The other arguement is that statistics determine playing ability. To me(and many others), clutch shooting is very important. Larry, Michael, and Jerry West are considered three of the best, while Chamberlain was considered sub-par. Statistics don't show that, and that has determined many of the Championships in the past. Another stat is how well your team plays. Robertson had players like Jerry Lucas and Adrian Smith on his team and they were still a mediocre team for many years, so that doesn't help him much. Bird had players like Dennis Johnson(the most underrated player ever IMO) and Kevin McHale and Robert Parrish(two players I consider overrated). It's safe to say that Bird helped his team more, but statistics simply don't show that.

pinky

Jan 7th, 2007, 10:02 AM

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 8th, 2007, 11:04 AM

I acknowledged the difficulties of comparing players of different eras and different positions in my post. I've also said that you can't really make a claim for anyone being the "best player ever" because of those difficulties.

I'm not the one making grandiose claims. I'm simply pointing out that you can't honestly make the claim for any one player.
Well, you said that Robertson and Chamberlain were better players than Bird was, so that's no different than me saying that Bird was the greatest. You've made comparisons just as I have. Who do you think are the best players by position? You can even divide it up into 5 categories as point guards and shooting guards are a bit different, but I'm not even sure as to what exact position some of the players were. For guards, it would be Johnson, Jordan, Robertson, and West, with Cousy, Stockton, and Thomas possibly being fifth. Kobe is a question mark at this point. For forwards, it's Bird, Erving, Baylor, Havlicek, and Malone. Lebron James isn't even close at this point as far as I'm concerned. For Centers, it's Jabaar, Russell, Mikan, Chamberlain, and O'Neal.

pinky

Jan 8th, 2007, 01:38 PM

No, actually I said you could make a case for Magic, Oscar, and Wilt. That's not saying they are better, just that you could argue the point.

I never claimed any of them was the "greatest player ever" as you did about Bird.

Stopanimalabuse

Jan 10th, 2007, 12:39 PM

I'm not saying that Bird wasn't a great player, because he was. But I think there were better.
This previous post shows you've made the comparisons as well, so you're just as guilty as anyone. I stated that Bird was the best, and you've stated that he was not. You didn't say you can make a case that others are better;you stated that others were better.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ULvo7__wwBU
This is not the best video I've seen of Bird, as it focuses too much on the game 7 against Atlanta and Dominique. If he's not the greatest, he's certainly the most exciting IMO. Jordan didn't have his passing ability, and Magic could pass but didn't make the great shots Larry did. I have seen some footage of Robertson, but I wouldn't say I'm overly impressed. There's just simply nobody like him. Even players like Cousy or West fall short.