Feminism Destroyed a Generation of Men

[Regis Philbin]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=421244&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

Feminism was going to liberate both sexes, but instead it destroyed a generation of men

By ROSIE BOYCOTT

Last updated at 09:14am on 8th December 2006

Once upon a time it used to be relatively simple to be a man: your role, as indeed it was my father's role, was to look after your wife and children, provide for them, make major decisions around the house and bring home the bacon.

When I was young and my father was temporarily unemployed after leaving the Army in the Fifties, there was no question that my mother might step into the breach and go out to work. We just went short of money.

I remember my father being depressed and angry during this brief period; later, when we talked about such issues, he told me that much of his unhappiness stemmed from feeling that he was letting down his family.

Thankfully, for him (and for us), the situation was soon resolved and Dad was able to reassert his sense of order and masculinity; he went out to work, Mum stayed at home, he dealt with the bills, Mum dealt with the cooking. It was all very ordered.

Nothing is so straightforward any more. My mother needed my father to keep a roof over her head and food on the table for her children.

Women don't need that now.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Gee. Is it confusing for you, Richie? Women having careers, brains, having control over their bodies, lives, making decisions, earning more money, voting, running countries?

Men need to get the hell over it.
Edit: Men like YOU need to get the hell over it. Fortunately, a lot of men are much more enlightened, but there are still men living in the stone age.

[SparkleHugs]

Yes we do not need that now. I am very thankful i dont need anyone to provide for me, so that if something happens to my furture husband, whether he dies or we seperate (God forbid either happening) I will be able to provide for myself completely. I do not see why this is an issue with anyone.

I agree with DES, Men need to get the hell over it.

[db44]

"Rosie Boycott"? :laugh:

Not all men, DES. Some of us already are. (pre-edit response. :p)

[LesterX]

When I was young and my father was temporarily unemployed after leaving the Army in the Fifties, there was no question that my mother might step into the breach and go out to work. We just went short of money.

Yes, far better to be "short of money" than to further endanger Daddy's delicate sense of his own masculinity by having a lowly woman provide for the family.

Crap like this makes my stomach turn.

[pinky]

Wow. This thread certainly explains a LOT.

Poor Richie. He can't handle the fact that his Mommy owns the house.

[tiger_rascal]

Interesting... this could help to explain the increase in the homosexual population in the last few decades!

[pinky]

No, it couldn't, even if there actually WERE an increase n the homoseexual population!

[Whoda Thunk?]

I hope that was satire.

[BrokenHalo]

Okay, wow is this misleading...Honest question: Did any of you actually read the whole article or did you get disgusted by what's here and stop reading?

Let me preface by saying that I think Rosie Boycott did a great disservice to her point by starting with that stroll down memory lane. I do not in any way think that women should go back to the stereotypical roles of homemaker or subserviant to their husbands. Women should not dumb themselves down or refrain from fulfilling their own desires for careers so that men can have their egos stroked. I don't question my masculinity because I have a female boss. Women in power don't scare me (in fact I think it's high time there's a woman--preferably a moderately liberal one :biggrin: in the White House). Women's liberation is a great thing and I don't want to take anything away from that. (And neither does Rosie if you actually read to the end of the article. At least not if I understood what she was saying correctly...I might be just reading it wrong to fit my own beliefs and to assume the best in people lol.)

That said, there is a problem. Rosie does address the problem as I see it to some extent, though you have to be willing to filter through the garbage to find it. She does have a few points that I agree with. It's a problem that is very apparent in my own community and a problem that I am working hard within my community to fix--and I think it really does need to be addressed sooner rather than later on a national level; and I'm not being satirical.

Our school system is failing our boys, and I could see how our next generation of men could very well turn out to be the “destroyed men" that she’s talking about. I agree that men of today who still think women should be at home barefoot, pregnant, get-the-dinner-on-the-table, subservient female should learn to get with the time and “get the hell over it”. It’s the men of tomorrow that I’m concerned about. The title of the article shouldn't include the words "Has Destroyed" but instead "Will Destroy".

Do any of you have young kids currently in school (my experience is limited to elementary, so I can't really comment beyond that except from my own HS experience from a few years ago)?

I'd really love to have a discussion about this topic (I'll admit that I practically started writing an essay about this topic--I got up to about 5 pages then realized that more than likely nobody here would actually read it if I posted it lol. So I've spared you most of it. lol)

I have lots of experiences that I've observed in my children's classrooms that have led me to be extremely concerned about what is happening to our boys. Girls are being favored heavily (I will gladly provide examples from my observation of my kids' classrooms if anyone's willing to discuss this issue rather than focus on the poor way Rosie began to address it...) in academics but also when it comes to learning behaviors and punishments.

I don’t want to set girls back in any way or not give them props for doing well; I just think that there’s also got to be some attention being made to help boys succeed as well.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if women were in power, but that's another discussion, I suppose. ;)

I'm not really sure of your point. Are you saying that because the education system allegedly favors girls that that is somehow destroying the men of tomorrow?

First, I don't know if your premise is true. Are you suggesting, given your experience in your area, that favoring females over males in schools has become entrenched and widespread?

Okay, let's say that's true. In what way does this destroy men? The way I see it, there are always kids who will be favored above others in school, just as there are those, male and female, who will be favored (rightly or wrongly) in every area of life, in the workplace, social situations, within families... Life isn't fair. Some buckle, some excel given the same circumstances.

[LesterX]

I did read the whole article and agree with you that she has some valid points, but I really can't get past her premise that gender roles need to be narrowly defined to ensure that men don't lose their sense of purpose.

I'm very interested in hearing your observations on how schools are failing boys. I don't have kids, but I do work with the school system on a regular basis and education is a keen interest of mine. Here in Los Angeles, the school system is failing the vast majority of children, both male and female. If I had to pick who is getting the rawest end of the deal, I'd say it's boys of color. They are experimenting with single sex classrooms at several schools in the Los Angeles Unified School District, which is controversial but quite intriguing. A couple of weeks ago, the LA Times had a cover article on the rise in single sex classrooms in both public and private school settings. It's an interesting read, and can be found here:
http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-singlesex20nov20,1,7114966.story?page=2&coll=la-news-learning

[tiger_rascal]

We are all created equal. If only we can all remember that and live by that.

I can see problems with the school system. Perhaps the situations are hard to see. Instead of boy and girl, lets say its white girl and black boy. Which do you think will be treated unfairly? Now, replace the black boy with a white boy, in many cases the example will remain the same, but will be harder to see. And, I've noticed things in regards to color. Oh, lets not punish that child, he/she is black and we will be accused of being racist! But with the white boy, its twenty lashings!!!

[shining star]

When all else fails, blame the women.

[tiger_rascal]

When all else fails, blame the women.

And the gays.

[BrokenHalo]

Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if women were in power, but that's another discussion, I suppose. ;)

I won't entirely disagree with you there. I will say that I think there should be a balance--and there is nowhere near that right now; it's still in too many ways "a man's world".

I'm not really sure of your point. Are you saying that because the education system allegedly favors girls that that is somehow destroying the men of tomorrow?

*IF* my observations from my local perspective proved to be wide-spread, yes, I think it is, and I will list a few examples of what I've seen below.

First, I don't know if your premise is true. Are you suggesting, given your experience in your area, that favoring females over males in schools has become entrenched and widespread?

No. However, conversations I've had with other parents on the web and in other areas have suggested to me that it is not a problem isolated to my area. Perhaps I am living in one of the worst areas and need not be as concerned as I am. Or perhaps not, which is why I take opportunities to discuss this when they arise.

Okay, let's say that's true. In what way does this destroy men? The way I see it, there are always kids who will be favored above others in school, just as there are those, male and female, who will be favored (rightly or wrongly) in every area of life, in the workplace, social situations, within families... Life isn't fair. Some buckle, some excel given the same circumstances.

Yes, I totally get that. But school and education should be as fair as possible. Right now, it's--from my admittedly local point of view--*really* not. But here's where I'm coming from, and what I've observed.

Where I'm coming from: I'm a young father (not biological, they're my niece and nephews but I am raising them myself and with my life partner) of 3. I work full time but have hours such that I am home with the kids every day (except Mondays) after school, and do a lot of volunteering for the school during the week as the resident male chaparone for pretty much every field trip, as a playground attendant a couple days a week, and in the classroom a few times a week where I read to the kids and basically am there to aide a teacher who has to watch too many kids all at once and on Friday afternoons I read aloud to a group of kids. So I observe a lot more than a lot of parents are able to because they work full time during the same hours that kids are in school. (Just so you know I don't think that's a bad thing, I'm not saying that every kid's parents should be in their kids' classrooms as much as I am. I think most kids would probably hate it (I frequently check back with mine to make sure they're cool with my volunteering, and so far they're all still cool with it. If they ever want me to stop, I'm gone.)

I will start with my girl, the oldest of my 3. I'm biased of course :biggrin: but she's very smart and a pretty cool kid. I started volunteering with her class because she was really shy when we moved here and she had some...issues that stemmed from her suddenly having 2 daddies instead of a single mom. So I was there mostly as an observer in the classroom. I didn't really notice the problem at first because well...quite frankly I was concerned with my own child's experience, not so much with the others.

She thrives in school, and her first teacher was wonderful about praising her when she did things right, and very helpful when she didn't answer something correctly. (This is very good--wouldn't want to change that at all!)

The problem, though, I noticed when my older boy entered school the next year and again I was volunteering. Now once again I started out pretty much mostly concerned with my own child's experience. I noticed he was only getting called on when he wasn't raising his hand. Not once when he raised his hand was he called on. Now, of course at first I thought I was just being an overly protective parent and I didn't do anything about it because well it was life. But it opened my eyes and I started paying attention to how the teacher that I'd thought was so great for my daughter *really* was teaching.

I kept a tally every time I visited the classroom. Again at this point I really thought I was probably being silly and seeing something that wasn't there. But my results after several weeks of observing: When the teacher called on someone who had their hand raised, it was overwhelmingly on a girl. When the teacher called on someone who *didn't* raise their hand it was 100% of the time to call on a boy. Not exaggerating, not once did she call on a girl who didn't have her hand raised.

So that bothered me, and I started paying attention to other things about the interactions. Again this is not a one-day sort of thing, this is repeated over time. When the girls that were called on answered something incorrectly, they were encouraged to try again and if they still got it wrong it would be explained why the correct answer was the correct answer. This is GREAT--this is how it should be. This is how children actually learn. They make mistakes and then are given the opportunity to correct the problem and learn from the mistake. Now, when boys in that same class didn't get the answer right, she would point at another student to give them a chance to answer.

Okay, so far that's not good, obviously, but it's only one teacher and maybe she just has a problem with little boys. Right?

Okay, so out of curiousity I started paying attention to how my girl's classes (new year, new teacher) were going and the results were almost consistant. This teacher was a little bit better about letting the boys correct mistakes, and a little bit better about calling on boys who raised hands. But again not one girl was called on who didn't raise her hand. And there was still a lot of times when she would be encouraging the girls and not-so-much with the boys.

The 3rd child entered school this year and yep...same thing happening in all 3 of their classes.

Now, this is just one aspect of the classes. I have lots more examples, but I'm doubtful that anyone's still reading. lol.

To illustrate how this is potential for creating "Destroyed Men" of the future, let me move on to another aspect of the class. In each of the classes, there are 3 different reading groups. Now 2 of the 3 reading groups have different names in the 3 classrooms, so I'll use my older boy's class names as an example. The advanced readers are the "SuperStars". The middle group call themselves "The Mighty Readers". And then there's the 3rd group in all 3 classes which is named the same for each: "The Remedial Group".

Okay, I get that some kids are going to learn faster than others, and that's life. I'm not in any way complaining about that. What my problem are: 1) Calling it The Remedial Group. Now I know that's calling it like it is, but really they could have come up with a name that doesn't drill it into them that they're behind the other 2 groups. And 2) Between the 3 classrooms, there are only 2 girls in The Remedial Group(s).

Now, if it were just a majority of boys in the group but still a few more girls, I'd probably be more inclined to pass it off as coincidental. That it's so heavily skewed, however, makes me think that there's something more to it. Studies have been done and yes men and women's brains work differently (I could search for a few of 'em, and I'm sure that there are probably studies that say differently. Honestly since I'm not a woman I can't say if my brain works differently...) Point is, that since they learn differently and schools are currently skewed such that it favors the way girls learn--that's no more fair than when it was the other way around. I'm in no way suggesting that we should go back to having it skewed heavily to favor the boys, I'm saying we need to start working on finding a balance.

Okay, back to The Remedial Group and why I think the education of boys is lacking and how I think it could (Not saying will, just saying *if* this is a widespread problem and not just in my neck of the woods) turn into a generation of "Destroyed Men":

Observing the reading groups, the higher two groups (the advanced one is mostly girls, though there are a few more boys in those groups than there are girls in TRG) they pretty much get lessons right within the first try or two and are heavily praised. Great (and not being sarcastic). The middle group might have a little more trouble but essentially they're doing okay just a few books behind the advanced. They, too, are praised for their successes.

And then there's TRG (I work with my boys outside of school to make sure they keep up with the advanced and/or mid-range groups because I really hate the thought that they will end up in this one...). In the youngest class, these boys (there are no girls in that class' TRG) are working, they struggle. The teacher of that class has them keep trying, but offers no new suggestions to help them--just repeats original instructions. When they get things right, there's no praise as there was for the other groups. There's just this relief that the child finally got it. Now I understand that these boys are behind the rest of the class and I don't think praise should necessarily be given for everything, but it should be when the other groups are heaped with it for their successes. These boys had to work harder to get to the same point, they deserve to have their successes praised. But that doesn't happen. Successes go unnoticed. (Yeah I asked about this once and was basically told that the reward was that they accomplished something. Yes, this is true, but come on, how many kids actually think like that? These kids are watching their classmates being heaped with praises for doing things that come fairly easily to them, while they struggle and work hard and get no reward. Which seems to be leading them to not work so hard.

There are boys I've been through 3 years of classes with now and watching them...*wither* is just plain pathetic. Some of them have become moody and withdrawn, some of them have started acting out. Some have just pretty much given up learning because they now feel they can't, or that it's not worth it.

So the way I see it, not doing something to help boys succeed--not making an effort to make things as fair as possible to make sure that BOTH boys and girls succeed--is a potential for major disaster as they grow older. I see boys dropping out of school, I see boys with terrible problems with self-esteem (which while I was in school was the major concern about girls!), I see these men becoming bitter and yes possibly seeing women as the root of their problems and taking it out on them with violence (so far men *tend* to be physically stronger and dominating). I don't condone that in the slightest (I am a pacifist), but I honestly think that *if* this really is or becomes a wide-spread problem it's only going to end up with boys becoming bitter men who only can succeed using the "Might Makes Right" mentality because schools have failed to help them achieve the knowledge they need to be productive in society.

I could definitely continue on with more observations regarding not just academic ways the boys are being failed by the school system, but also in things I've observed about how they're being treated very different than girls in behavioral matters and punishments for offenses--another way that is heavily skewed in the girls' favor at our school, but this is already starting to rival my 5 page and growing essay...

[BrokenHalo]

They are experimenting with single sex classrooms at several schools in the Los Angeles Unified School District, which is controversial but quite intriguing. A couple of weeks ago, the LA Times had a cover article on the rise in single sex classrooms in both public and private school settings. It's an interesting read, and can be found here:
http://www.latimes.com/news/education/la-me-singlesex20nov20,1,7114966.story?page=2&coll=la-news-learning

I'll definitely read it. That is actually one of the suggestions that I've tried to discuss with people on the school board (I'm so running for this office at some point...lol) In some respects I abhor the idea of segregating the classes based on gender--men and women need to learn how to work *together*. However, men and women learn differently and thus in a way it really makes sense to seperate them so that they can be taught in ways that actually work for them without slowing the class down to a crawl because the same things need to be taught 2 ways.

My solution (which was quickly nixed) was to have some classes that are mixed and some that are seperated, such that on any given day maybe the morning classes are seperated into boys and girls, and the after noon classes some of the students switch off so that there are boys and girls in the class. That way the social aspect is still there, and there's equal opportunity for boys and girls to learn in ways that work best for them.

One of the problems that was brought up with this (and I agree with it) is that there's always going to be exceptions to rules. Where most boys find it easier to learn one way, there's going to be the boy who learns easier the way the majority of girls learn (and vice versa). So in those cases, when they're discovered, we can't just force them to stay in their gender-assigned classroom. And of course perhaps it won't be detected for a while that this may be the case and that child is left behind. But I think we as a society *really* need to be having these discussions and trying to come up with real solutions.

[LesterX]

I kept a tally every time I visited the classroom. Again at this point I really thought I was probably being silly and seeing something that wasn't there. But my results after several weeks of observing: When the teacher called on someone who had their hand raised, it was overwhelmingly on a girl. When the teacher called on someone who *didn't* raise their hand it was 100% of the time to call on a boy. Not exaggerating, not once did she call on a girl who didn't have her hand raised.

That's really interesting. I know there's a wide research base that shows that girls traditionally defer to boys in the classroom, so teachers may well be taught to call on girls more to balance that out. I'm not saying that's okay, but that may be why that is happening. The scenario you're describing though, not only harms boys, it harms girls who may be shy or not thriving in school -- the ones not raising their hands and not being called on. Teachers need to create a learning environment in which it's okay to be wrong and learn from mistakes and one that values everyone's participation.

Now, this is just one aspect of the classes. I have lots more examples, but I'm doubtful that anyone's still reading. lol.

I was still reading, and interested!

Okay, I get that some kids are going to learn faster than others, and that's life. I'm not in any way complaining about that. What my problem are: 1) Calling it The Remedial Group. Now I know that's calling it like it is, but really they could have come up with a name that doesn't drill it into them that they're behind the other 2 groups.

Ugh, I'm totally with you here. I think that's horrid. Personally, I don't think any of the groups should have names that denote which one is "better." Let the kids name their own groups and develop some group pride. I have a distinct memory of being in the "advanced" readers group in first grade and being stung in the eye by a bee. I had to wear a patch, and you know what I was most concerned about? That I'd get bumped out of the advanced reading group. Looking back, all I can think is "why in the hell did I know that I was in the 'advanced' group?"

Now, if it were just a majority of boys in the group but still a few more girls, I'd probably be more inclined to pass it off as coincidental. That it's so heavily skewed, however, makes me think that there's something more to it. Studies have been done and yes men and women's brains work differently (I could search for a few of 'em, and I'm sure that there are probably studies that say differently. Honestly since I'm not a woman I can't say if my brain works differently...)

If memory serves, I think that the typical developmental trajectory is that girls do better than boys at the outset of school, and boys catch up in late elementary/middle school. I think that's been true for a long time, so I'm not sure that the fact that boys are way over-represented in the remedial group is an indicator that current education policy is skewed to favor girls. What may be different now is that there is so much emphasis on testing at an early age, and so much pressure, that kids know when they're not meeting expectations. The boys aren't given the opportunity to catch up without being labeled "failures" from a young age.

These kids are watching their classmates being heaped with praises for doing things that come fairly easily to them, while they struggle and work hard and get no reward. Which seems to be leading them to not work so hard.

Totally agree with you here as well. Why heap praise on those for whom the learning comes easily and hold it back from those who struggle more to succeed? One of the coolest things I've ever seen at a school was called "Read with the Principal." It's an inner city school that is overwhelmingly comprised of low-income English Learners, where the vast majority of kids are seriously behind and it's not unusual for 4th graders to not know how to read. Whenever one of the children who was behind finally learned to read, they were invited into the principal's office, given a crown to wear, got to show off their reading skills to the principal, and had their picture taken. Success was truly celebrated.


So the way I see it, not doing something to help boys succeed--not making an effort to make things as fair as possible to make sure that BOTH boys and girls succeed--is a potential for major disaster as they grow older...

I think your concerns are very valid.

I could definitely continue on with more observations regarding not just academic ways the boys are being failed by the school system, but also in things I've observed about how they're being treated very different than girls in behavioral matters and punishments for offenses--another way that is heavily skewed in the girls' favor at our school, but this is already starting to rival my 5 page and growing essay...

That's a huge issue here, particularly with boys of color. Not only are they disproportionately represented in disciplinary actions (and when kids are kicked out of class they are missing important academic time), they are disproportionately represented in special ed. Problems that are behavioral in nature (often stemming from challenging home environments) and not actual learning disabilities frequently land children in special ed.

[LesterX]

In some respects I abhor the idea of segregating the classes based on gender--men and women need to learn how to work *together*. However, men and women learn differently and thus in a way it really makes sense to seperate them so that they can be taught in ways that actually work for them without slowing the class down to a crawl because the same things need to be taught 2 ways.

Yep, I have mixed feelings about same sex classrooms for the same reasons you've articulated. I think your solution is a reasonable one.

Good luck on your future school board race! I bet you'll make a great candidate when the time comes.

[tiger_rascal]

Problems that are behavioral in nature (often stemming from challenging home environments) and not actual learning disabilities frequently land children in special ed.

Whoa! You just nailed my elementary school life! Things finally worked their way right though, in my case. But it was a mess, until a caring teacher stepped in and saw what was happening and helped me.

[LesterX]

Whoa! You just nailed my elementary school life! Things finally worked their way right though, in my case. But it was a mess, until a caring teacher stepped in and saw what was happening and helped me.

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that. I think it happens more often than most people realize. You're very fortunate that someone stepped in and helped you.

[tiger_rascal]

Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that. I think it happens more often than most people realize. You're very fortunate that someone stepped in and helped you.

It wasnt till 4th grade. She took up my case and it did not take long for her to realize something was not right. Finally, when I was 12 and in 6th grade she got things straightened out for me. I was so scared, I had to attend a meeting with the state board of education without my mom! To say the least, I was frightened, but I knew things were finally going to go my way and my teacher had my back. I grew up very fast, by the time I was 12 I was far more matured than other boys my age so the meeting went well. I entered jr. high free from special ed. and never looked back. Although, there was one accident in 8th grade that made me so mad. We had a substitute teacher in study hall, I had no work, so I was bored and I started playing with a rubber band and pencil. Next thing I know, the pencil flew through the air and landed on her desk. She thought I was out to hurt her! The special ed. teacher at that school pulled me into the hall, grabbed my arm very tightly and whispered "I know who you are and your background! I can put you back in those classes!", needless to say I was fuming and told the teacher she had no idea who I was and I broke free from her and ran to the office and called my mom. I was apologized to and ever since nothing ever happened through-out the rest of my school life. But I've often thought about kids today in special ed. classes. But what can I do. I always wanted to be a teacher, but I always tell myself, its too late, I dont have any way to go to college for something like that, although I would love to. I also want to find my old teacher that helped me.

[LesterX]

That's a very powerful story. Thank goodness you had the maturity to advocate for yourself in front of the state board. At that age, I would have been so terrified I would have been speechless.

I always wanted to be a teacher, but I always tell myself, its too late, I dont have any way to go to college for something like that, although I would love to.

I think someone with your experience and passion would make an awesome teacher. Why in the world do you think it's too late? Aren't you in your mid-twenties? If it's money for college that's holding you back, why not look into attending a community college for two years, which is really cheap, then transferring to a state university and taking out loans? You also could look into applying to Teach for America after graduating, which helps pay off loans in exchange for two years of paid teaching in disadvantaged communities, both rural and urban.

There are also tons of accredited, on-line degree programs now, so if it's a matter of not having time to attend classes because of work, that's a situation that can be remedied also.

Not trying to run your life here -- I just hate to hear anyone say that it's too late or not possible to make something happen!

[tiger_rascal]

I just hate to hear anyone say that it's too late or not possible to make something happen!

I know, I hate to hear that from myself! Its just that, my job is not the best, over worked and under paid.

Now that this has been brought up, and with your suggestions and encouragement, I just may look into classes I can take for teaching. :)

[*Katy*]

Whoa! You just nailed my elementary school life! Things finally worked their way right though, in my case. But it was a mess, until a caring teacher stepped in and saw what was happening and helped me.
That happens too with kids with learning disabilities that shouldnt be in special ed but end up there because teachers dont want to deal with it. They placed me in special ed in 7th grade because of my dyslexia/add and it was a joke. My mom was screaming at the principle to put me in a normal classroom. I needed some accomodations but there was no reason to put me in special ed. Not to mention what it does to a childs self esteem, they're already having a hard time in school and then to be put in special ed away from friends and basically be told your not normal.

Also, its never too late to start a new career, probably half my class is made up of people 30 and older. One guy just retired and decided to go back to school to do something completely different.

[tiger_rascal]

Also, its never too late to start a new career, probably half my class is made up of people 30 and older. One guy just retired and decided to go back to school to do something completely different.

Im in my late 20's. I have a friend currently enrolled in a community college in our town and she has been begging me to take up classes of some kind and further my education!

[*Katy*]

Im in my late 20's. I have a friend currently enrolled in a community college in our town and she has been begging me to take up classes of some kind and further my education!
You should definately go for it, it might be stressful for awhile but its worth it to have a job that you like and enjoy doing.

[DoubleEdgeSword]

So, I'm late to the party... just a few comments, here.

Halo, thank you for taking the time to explain the reasoning behind your posts and addressing my questions. I agree with much of what you've said. The "Remedial Group" is particularly troubling. Also, I commend you for taking such an interest in your kids' education. More parents should follow your example. Go for that school board seat. I'd vote for you. :)

Chad, it's never too late. I was 49 when I went back to school to pursue a nursing career. I love my job. Go get those college catalogs. You can never go wrong with getting more education.

[Stopanimalabuse]

I wouldn't say I agree with that article, but feminism has both its good and bad aspects. Back around the 1950's, our crime rate was relatively low. There was an emphasis on the family. As the emphasis has lessened, the divorce rate has increased greatly, causing many children to have only one parent. Children are more likely to commit crime, and that is what has happened. Also, females used to have a higher life expectancy than males, but that has slowly dropped in comparison. The higher level of stress is considered as being a major factor.

[WannaBreatheYou]

I wouldn't say I agree with that article, but feminism has both its good and bad aspects. Back around the 1950's, our crime rate was relatively low. There was an emphasis on the family. As the emphasis has lessened, the divorce rate has increased greatly, causing many children to have only one parent. Children are more likely to commit crime, and that is what has happened. Also, females used to have a higher life expectancy than males, but that has slowly dropped in comparison. The higher level of stress is considered as being a major factor.
More people = higher crime rate. We have far more people in the US than we did in the 1950's. I know there are other factors, but I don't think feminism has anything to do with a higher crime rate.

Divorce is easy to get, so people get them. They don't want to work out their problems, they want to shove them under a rug. However, I think it's a hell of a lot better to be able to get out of a bad relationship than put up with abuse - verbal, mental and physical - than stay all hush hush about it and it being "domestic affairs" that the police won't step in on. Women can leave that kind of environment now. Instead of hubby coming home and being pissed off because dinner isn't on the table and beating the hell out of his wife and nothing being done about it, she can call the police, have him arrested and leave. She has that option now, which she didn't have 50 years ago.

[BrokenHalo]

More people = higher crime rate. We have far more people in the US than we did in the 1950's. I know there are other factors, but I don't think feminism has anything to do with a higher crime rate.

Not in and of itself, no. And please don't get me wrong--I'm again not saying that feminism or women's lib is a bad thing--I'm not at all, it's a good thing. The problem is that while making vast improvements with women's rights and all that go with it, we've failed to come up with good solutions on the children-front. It should never have been solely the woman's job to stay home and raise the kids, and it should not go back to that *but* getting ourselves out of the hole our ancesters have dug for us is a tough road. There was once one parent that made sure that the kids were being raised properly, had someone at home when they got home from school who basically taught them manners, behavior, helped with school, nurtured and supported them, etc, etc. Now many kids don't really have that. When they're younger they may be in afterschool programs, as they grow older they're basically on their own and well...erm...kids when left to their own devices...[insert angelic smile here].

So basically, while we don't want to go backward, we need to come up with a new solution as we go forward. One thing I've suggested on my local level is one that won't go over as well with the kids (I know I wouldn't have wanted to...but yeah) and currently isn't in the budgeting--I think extending the school day would help out a lot of working parents (where both work or in single-parent families). And we need to bring back some of the extra-curriculars that in so many areas are being taken away. I know it's not in the budgeting right now and that's why the programs have been dropped, but I think keeping kids in more structured programs rather than having them head off to empty homes (or wherever they go with friends and are unsupervised for the most part...) Also a lot of the programs around here that have been cut in the few years since I left school include music and art type clubs and classes. Sports are great, yes, but there needs to be a wider variety of interests that are represented with organized afterschool projects. We need things to spark other interests. In my opinion, the extra hour of school should be devoted to helping kids find the things that they're most interested in. A lot of kids don't really *have* someone helping them do that right now. Sure there are many kids who find that thing on their own anyway, but many end up finding erm...inappropriate interests...*cough*. In having a more comprehensive guidance system in place in the schools, it would, I think, really help relieve some of the problems that have developed in the recent past.

Incidentally, it's my *theory* (i.e. no proof to give you at this point) that it's not the "more people" making a higher crime rate (there are some densely populated areas that don't have particularly bad crime rates) but a more under-educated people that's causing it. But that's only my theory and I digress....

Divorce is easy to get, so people get them. They don't want to work out their problems, they want to shove them under a rug. However, I think it's a hell of a lot better to be able to get out of a bad relationship than put up with abuse - verbal, mental and physical - than stay all hush hush about it and it being "domestic affairs" that the police won't step in on. Women can leave that kind of environment now. Instead of hubby coming home and being pissed off because dinner isn't on the table and beating the hell out of his wife and nothing being done about it, she can call the police, have him arrested and leave. She has that option now, which she didn't have 50 years ago.

I will totally agree with you on this part. It was/IS *really* not healthy to have one partner totally dependant on another. And anyone in an abusive situation should have the opportunities to leave it (and to get their children out of it). That is why we shouldn't even think about trying to go backward (I know some disagree :rolleyes: and yes, those are the ones who need to "get over it"), but instead as a society start coming up with solutions to help us keep moving forward. Society changes take a lot of time and are usually riddled with lots of setbacks...*sigh*, but we just have to keep working at it.

[WannaBreatheYou]

Not in and of itself, no. And please don't get me wrong--I'm again not saying that feminism or women's lib is a bad thing--I'm not at all, it's a good thing. The problem is that while making vast improvements with women's rights and all that go with it, we've failed to come up with good solutions on the children-front. It should never have been solely the woman's job to stay home and raise the kids, and it should not go back to that *but* getting ourselves out of the hole our ancesters have dug for us is a tough road. There was once one parent that made sure that the kids were being raised properly, had someone at home when they got home from school who basically taught them manners, behavior, helped with school, nurtured and supported them, etc, etc. Now many kids don't really have that. When they're younger they may be in afterschool programs, as they grow older they're basically on their own and well...erm...kids when left to their own devices...[insert angelic smile here].

So basically, while we don't want to go backward, we need to come up with a new solution as we go forward. One thing I've suggested on my local level is one that won't go over as well with the kids (I know I wouldn't have wanted to...but yeah) and currently isn't in the budgeting--I think extending the school day would help out a lot of working parents (where both work or in single-parent families). And we need to bring back some of the extra-curriculars that in so many areas are being taken away. I know it's not in the budgeting right now and that's why the programs have been dropped, but I think keeping kids in more structured programs rather than having them head off to empty homes (or wherever they go with friends and are unsupervised for the most part...) Also a lot of the programs around here that have been cut in the few years since I left school include music and art type clubs and classes. Sports are great, yes, but there needs to be a wider variety of interests that are represented with organized afterschool projects. We need things to spark other interests. In my opinion, the extra hour of school should be devoted to helping kids find the things that they're most interested in. A lot of kids don't really *have* someone helping them do that right now. Sure there are many kids who find that thing on their own anyway, but many end up finding erm...inappropriate interests...*cough*. In having a more comprehensive guidance system in place in the schools, it would, I think, really help relieve some of the problems that have developed in the recent past.

Incidentally, it's my *theory* (i.e. no proof to give you at this point) that it's not the "more people" making a higher crime rate (there are some densely populated areas that don't have particularly bad crime rates) but a more under-educated people that's causing it. But that's only my theory and I digress....



I will totally agree with you on this part. It was/IS *really* not healthy to have one partner totally dependant on another. And anyone in an abusive situation should have the opportunities to leave it (and to get their children out of it). That is why we shouldn't even think about trying to go backward (I know some disagree :rolleyes: and yes, those are the ones who need to "get over it"), but instead as a society start coming up with solutions to help us keep moving forward. Society changes take a lot of time and are usually riddled with lots of setbacks...*sigh*, but we just have to keep working at it.
Well, I was raised by two working parents. 95% of the time, I didn't have a parent to get me off to school or be there when I got home. Either did my older brother and sister. Two of us are very well adjusted adults who have our lives figured out and doing fairly well for ourselves. My brother is married (18 years on Sunday) with a 15 year old daughter. They both work and have their entire marriage. I'm a single mother who works a long day.

From my experience with my son, I can't say that my being home would make much of a difference in his behavior at school. My parents watch him before/after school. They volunteer at school -- because I can't. I'm 35 miles away from home and rely on them to help me out. And he's failing. Not because I work, not because no one in his immediate family is involved, but for reasons that I can't begin to comprehend. I feel that mother's guilt thing, but I know that there isn't anything I can do but continue to try to get it to click with him that this is important.

I really don't think feminism has anything to do with kids pissing away school and education. I don't think not having a parent home has much effect on it either since I was raised without my parents being home to guide me as a child/teen. I think that videogames have something to do with it and the fact that children aren't being taught to be responsible for their actions. I think the fact that they're in this RIGHT NOW world of on demand TV, videogames, fast food and computers has taught them impatience for working for things and helped aid in the rise in children with attention defecit disorders. I think the fact that since many adults/parents choose not to take responsibility for their actions (the Twinkie defense, McDonald's made me fat, etc.) that children are picking up on that and they don't take responsibility for THEIR actions either. Monkey see, monkey do.