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Sunflowergirl
Nov 11th, 2007, 10:05 PM
Intelligence deputy to America: Rethink privacy
WASHINGTON (AP) -- As Congress debates new rules for government eavesdropping, a top intelligence official says it is time that people in the United States change their definition of privacy. Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguard people's private communications and financial information.

Kerr's comments come as Congress is taking a second look at the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Lawmakers hastily changed the 1978 law last summer to allow the government to eavesdrop inside the United States without court permission, so long as one end of the conversation was reasonably believed to be located outside the U.S.

The original law required a court order for any surveillance conducted on U.S. soil in order to protect Americans' privacy. The White House argued that the law was obstructing intelligence gathering because, as technology has changed, a growing amount of foreign communications passes through U.S.-based channels.

The most contentious issue in the new legislation is whether to shield telecommunications companies from civil lawsuits for allegedly giving the government access to people's private e-mails and phone calls without a FISA court order between 2001 and 2007.

Some lawmakers, including members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, appear reluctant to grant immunity. Suits might be the only way to determine how far the government has burrowed into people's privacy without court permission. The committee is expected to decide this week whether its version of the bill will protect telecommunications companies. About 40 wiretapping suits are pending.

The central witness in a California lawsuit against AT&T says the government is vacuuming up billions of e-mails and phone calls as they pass through an AT&T switching station in San Francisco, California.

Mark Klein, a retired AT&T technician, helped connect a device in 2003 that he says diverted and copied onto a government supercomputer every call, e-mail, and Internet site access on AT&T lines.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which filed the class-action suit, claims there are as many as 20 such sites in the U.S....

...Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an advocacy group that defends online free speech, privacy and intellectual property rights, said Kerr's argument ignores both privacy laws and American history.

"Anonymity has been important since the Federalist Papers were written under pseudonyms," Opsahl said. "The government has tremendous power: the police power, the ability to arrest, to detain, to take away rights. Tying together that someone has spoken out on an issue with their identity is a far more dangerous thing if it is the government that is trying to tie it together."

Opsahl also said Kerr ignores the distinction between sacrificing protection from an intrusive government and voluntarily disclosing information in exchange for a service.

"There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties," he said. "We shouldn't have to give people the choice between taking advantage of modern communication tools and sacrificing their privacy."

"It's just another 'trust us, we're the government,"' he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/11/terrorist.surveillance.ap/index.html

ConnieB
Nov 12th, 2007, 01:53 AM
Eavesdropping on phone calls is NOTHING new, it's been happening since the 1940's with a program known as Echelon. The USA didn't actually monitor the phone calls, but other countries did for us and reported them back to us.

I feel this needs to be done since we have NO way of knowing who is in our country right now. If you want your privacy back, then support the fight on illegal immigration and stricter immigration laws so we know who is here with us and we can keep track of them.

-By the way, for those in the USA..we still have ALOT of rights in which many take for granted. for instance;
We don't have to sing the national anthem where as in other countries if you don't, you can go to jail.
-If you speak out about the government here nothing will happen, but if you do in other countries you go to jail.
-If you stay here illegally, you can get a job, benefits, and welfare, where as you pass the date of your visa or sneak into another country, you go to jail and get deported.
-We can speak whatever language we desire in this country, but in other countries you speak their official language in public....

Should I continue.......

Before any one preaches about having rights/privacy taken away...look at other countries first and see how lucky we really are. Every one takes from this country of ours, and hardly no one is willing to give back...we are breeding a selfish society....All any one really cares about is themselves and not what is in the best interest of our country as a whole, esp after 9/11.

DoubleEdgeSword
Nov 12th, 2007, 03:23 AM
Right, Connie. We should just be grateful that our government has decided to take away only some of our rights, is that it? To hell with the Constitution and the horrific struggle our ancesctors went through to found this country (by the way, they were all immigrants); to set up a system of government with checks and balances in order to keep one branch from obtaining too much power; to ensure individuals certain rights against intrusion by the government, including this one:

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The Bill of Rights aren't up for trade. Nobody gets to say, "Well, you have this one, so you can give up that one," as you're trying to suggest we view it, Connie. And to suggest that we are selfish for wanting, demanding these rights is just outrageous. You might as well spit in the face of our founding fathers, Connie.

What is in the best interest of our country is to keep the freedoms we have, not to give them up out of fear.

Annoyedlistner
Nov 12th, 2007, 06:33 AM
No Connie, its not ok to take away our freedoms, if you start taking things away like the right to privacy, then where does it stop? Does it mean in future if i say "The President is a jack ass", then i should go to jail?

This is leading down a very slippery road and it needs to be stopped now.

I've also about had it with the imigration issue, for some reason this has been made the "talking point" for all conservatives in this country over the past few years. Maybe it was done so to cover up all of the things that have gone bad for this country since GWB took office. I dont know, but its absurd that we make this the lead topic.

LesterX
Nov 12th, 2007, 12:49 PM
Before any one preaches about having rights/privacy taken away...look at other countries first and see how lucky we really are. Every one takes from this country of ours, and hardly no one is willing to give back...we are breeding a selfish society....All any one really cares about is themselves and not what is in the best interest of our country as a whole, esp after 9/11.

Ah, you gotta love the "selfish" accusation coming from someone who said she didn't want her tax dollars used to provide health care for other people's children.

Yes, Connie, anyone who dares disagree with you about the direction of this country is merely "selfish." It has nothing to do with principle -- wanting to maintain the rights guaranteed under a little thing called the Constitution.

If you stay here illegally, you can get a job, benefits, and welfare, where as you pass the date of your visa or sneak into another country, you go to jail and get deported.

Newsflash -- we deport people in this country too. You really need to do some fact-checking. You cannot get a job, benefits and welfare in this country if you are known to be here illegally. That's why there's a huge black market for fake documents. If you think illegal immigration isn't a problem in other countries, I'd suggest you google "illegal immigration UK" for starters. Illegal immigration in the UK and throughout the EU is a major issue. Perhaps Lou Dobbs or your buddies on Fox news forgot to tell you that.

tiger_rascal
Nov 12th, 2007, 01:40 PM
In a way, I think the government should allow us privacy, but also, it would be best if this country could be like a small town, where we all know each other by name and what we had for dinner last night. :)

Annoyedlistner
Nov 12th, 2007, 01:45 PM
In a way, I think the government should allow us privacy, but also, it would be best if this country could be like a small town, where we all know each other by name and what we had for dinner last night. :)

Not that you really care if i know what you had for dinner last night Chad....but if you didnt want me to know something like that...then thats your right.....thats part of being a free Country. It truley seems to me that some people are trying to rip that away from us.

tiger_rascal
Nov 12th, 2007, 02:09 PM
There is nothing wrong with small towns where everyone knows everyones business. I think it helps. I mean, the small town I live in has a crime rate that is almost zero.

If our country could be like that, I think it would help. Its not about the government taking away our privacy, but about us opening our eyes and ears.

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Or something like that.

WannaBreatheYou
Nov 12th, 2007, 02:53 PM
There is nothing wrong with small towns where everyone knows everyones business. I think it helps. I mean, the small town I live in has a crime rate that is almost zero.

If our country could be like that, I think it would help. Its not about the government taking away our privacy, but about us opening our eyes and ears.

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Or something like that.
I wouldn't live in a small town. Ever. I don't want people knowing my business unless I choose to tell them.

tiger_rascal
Nov 12th, 2007, 03:03 PM
Its not that bad really. I mean, the up side is far better than the down side.

WannaBreatheYou
Nov 12th, 2007, 04:08 PM
Its not that bad really. I mean, the up side is far better than the down side.
Eh. I volunteered to be a big sister one year, and my "Little" was from a small town. The stories she told me about the kids at school made my stomach churn. They didn't have anything to do, because it was a small town and the nearest mall was 20 miles away, so it was a rite of passage to give boys BJ's under the bleachers at the football field...at 12, 13 and 14 years old. This was almost 20 years ago.

Annoyedlistner
Nov 12th, 2007, 04:28 PM
There is nothing wrong with small towns where everyone knows everyones business. I think it helps. I mean, the small town I live in has a crime rate that is almost zero.

If our country could be like that, I think it would help. Its not about the government taking away our privacy, but about us opening our eyes and ears.

Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country. Or something like that.


Chad ive lived in both small and large towns, I love them both....but if i dont want someone to know what I'm doing or who i'm talking to...thats my right. I'm all for keeping an eye out for things, but the minute someone is poking their head through my window is the minute they loose an eye.

tiger_rascal
Nov 12th, 2007, 04:48 PM
I'm all for keeping an eye out for things, but the minute someone is poking their head through my window is the minute they loose an eye.

I understand.

Its not like that in my small town. Its more like out in public, people talk to each other, make eye contact, smile, even chat for a bit and not even know each other.

In big cities, you're just another little ant marching around.

DoubleEdgeSword
Nov 13th, 2007, 06:36 AM
I love small towns. Everyone in a small town knows you have skeletons in your closet, most even know what those skeletons are, some will gossip about you behind your back, but in polite society those skeletons stay right in that closet where they belong. Unless, of course, someone wants to extort something from you.

Some of the best southern writing comes out of those traditions. :)

tiger_rascal
Nov 13th, 2007, 06:39 AM
I love small towns. Everyone in a small town knows you have skeletons in your closet, most even know what those skeletons are, some will gossip about you behind your back, but in polite society those skeletons stay right in that closet where they belong. Unless, of course, someone wants to extort something from you.

Some of the best southern writing comes out of those traditions. :)

LOL! :roll:

True. :nc:

Annoyedlistner
Nov 13th, 2007, 08:03 AM
I understand.

Its not like that in my small town. Its more like out in public, people talk to each other, make eye contact, smile, even chat for a bit and not even know each other.

In big cities, you're just another little ant marching around

Its not really like that here either.....besides i have an "alarm system" nowadays......see that little brown dog as my avatar...he seems to let ya know if someone is around thats not supposed to be..he's great at barking...but doesn't really scare anyone.....but himself sometimes :)

lions1mew
Nov 14th, 2007, 07:59 AM
So tell me again why soldiers are off in a foreign country fighting and dying to protect ... what again? Obviously not our freedoms and rights since those are at the whim of the Ego-driven Maniac in Chief right now.