Iran's influence

[db44]

Looking at the pictures and reports we have received out of Iran mademe think about the causes there. Calls for "change," people demonstrating peacefully... How much of this could be the backlash of Obama?

Also, in irony, how much is this because of Bush and Iraq? Even though I still beleive Iraq will become unstable soon after we leave, for the time being, Iran doesn't have to worry about its bitter enemy. Funny that it could be Iran that improves over our actions in the region, not Iraq.

But digging further into the future, could this all end up being our undoing? If the opposition in Iran eventually succeeds and Iraq stays the course with cooler heads, could they become friends? And if so, how long until the West becomes the enemy for all? Perhaps not long as we hopefully ween ourselves off fossil fuels. Could a unified "Ira" be a major threat down the road? I say that part of what I've said before, and adding a wee bit o' Nostradamus to the mix.

[Liviagray]

Looking at the pictures and reports we have received out of Iran mademe think about the causes there. Calls for "change," people demonstrating peacefully... How much of this could be the backlash of Obama?

Also, in irony, how much is this because of Bush and Iraq? Even though I still beleive Iraq will become unstable soon after we leave, for the time being, Iran doesn't have to worry about its bitter enemy. Funny that it could be Iran that improves over our actions in the region, not Iraq.

But digging further into the future, could this all end up being our undoing? If the opposition in Iran eventually succeeds and Iraq stays the course with cooler heads, could they become friends? And if so, how long until the West becomes the enemy for all? Perhaps not long as we hopefully ween ourselves off fossil fuels. Could a unified "Ira" be a major threat down the road? I say that part of what I've said before, and adding a wee bit o' Nostradamus to the mix.

You know probably you smoke something good, because what you saying is so out of fantasy land. You think people in Iran protested because of Obama? What Obama did to make people in Iran so brave. This post just prove you knew nothing about Middle East and you looking at it through your Obama pink glasses. People in Iran are protested because they have enough of tortures and religious pressure. You have no idea in what hell this people live. In Iran women and girls could be kidnapped from the streets by religious police, because they think that womens/girls coat is not appropriate. Kids from the age of 6-12 could be execute for some imaginary crime. 30 years people live in fear, and you think Obama helped them? Not. Your Obama like coward told them he agrees with election results and doesn't matter how many people protested he keeps his mouth shut . When millions people are screaming for help what Obama do? Oh, he asked Twitter to not have regular update. Bigg Woop! People around the world support Iranians, but not Obama. For him they are wrong. They shouldn't fight for freedom, because their Ayatollah and Obama said so.
You also very wrong if you think that Iran and Irag could be more than polite enemies. They fought in war too long to became friends.

[db44]

You want to know where I get the idea?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/19/iran.protests.women/index.html

(CNN) -- Like thousands of other Iranian women, Parisa took to Tehran's streets this week, her heart brimming with hope. "Change," said the placards around her.

"Change" was the simple slogan of Obama supporters through the campaign.

If you look at the picture accompanying the picture, you see women holding up a lithogragh of Mousavi, which, while monotone green, is in a very similar style of the Obama painting that was so popular during the election.

Did you read the reports around the world of how many people were happy about Obama's election? That he has some Islamic roots also was a big story (good and bad).

So why is it so outlandish?

What I do know about the Middle East is that the protests are happening in the same streets of bloody battles over the years. That despite the Royal Guard using force, the protestors are not.

You talk about what police can do to women, and yet the story that I based my thoughts on was ABOUT women in Iran. A change. A change that I'm not sure would be so able to go forward with Bush in office. Obama spoke about it all at his inauguration speech: About change, about being willing to listen, about countries fending for themselves. Bush's words actually paralleled Hussien's: "we are not the enemy of the people of Iran." But at the same time, he spoke of the crusade against the people who committed the heinous acts of 9/11, he maintained the whole of Iran must suffer because of its leadership.

You question what I know about the Middle East. I know more than the last president did, I'm fairly certain. I cringed the moment I heard his words, and was not surprised to see the national and international press took him to task for his poor choice of words.

I also think I know more about the Middle East than you. Just because you live there, doesn't make you an expert. Just getting your news from where you want to furthers my view.

Kind of like what you say Obama's reaction was... Not anything I'd seen elsewhere. Here's more on line with what I've seen:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090616/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_us_iran

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama expressed "deep concerns" Tuesday about the legitimacy of Iran's presidential elections and post-voting crackdowns but declined to term hard-liner Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's re-election a fraud. His spokesman said the U.S. offers to talk with Iran's government over its suspected nuclear weapons program would not change regardless of the victor.

Obama, praising what he called "amazing ferment" in Iran around the disputed voting, stepped gingerly around the topic for the second day. Human rights, press freedom and democracy advocates had expected the president to show outrage at the Iranian government's treatment of protesters and skepticism for the election outcome.

Instead, Obama, noting the 30-year-old freeze in diplomatic relations between the two nations and high-stakes international tensions over nuclear issues, told reporters at the White House, "It's not productive, given the history of U.S.-Iranian relations, to be seen as meddling."

He spoke. He had I think the right answer. He didn't denounce the results as a fraud, but he didn't say they were correct either. And he offered to talk. He offered change.

There's that word again: Change.

[Liviagray]

You want to know where I get the idea?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/19/iran.protests.women/index.html



"Change" was the simple slogan of Obama supporters through the campaign.

Obama said he agreed with vote results and he didn't want to get involved in the crisis. That's why probably Ayatollah blames everything on Zionist and bad British radio. people in Britain was not afraid to support Iranian's, when Obama preferred to stay away.
Obama was not a first person who created this slogan. Do you know how Soviet Union was destroyed? Everything started from slogan Perestroika which in Russian means changes. And what this changes made with Soviet Union? Destroyed this country to shreds. people still trying rebuild something they have before. So Obama was not a first who wanted changes, the same with Iranian's. They want changes not because of Obama influence, but because last 30 years they lived a horrible life and don't want to live like this anymore. Obamas "changes" and Iranian's changes are different. When Obama just want to do something outrageous to make Republicans to be jealous, when Iranian's people simply want to have a normal life without fear for their families. I hope Obama "changes" not turn out as Soviet Unions were. Nobody can play with economic, when they floating on drawing ship. Maybe some changes Obama promising sounds good, but what they will be in the end and who would be paying for them, this is a question?

[oxymoron]

I think the people of Iran operate out of their own motivations. What Obama does do, however, is indicate to them that they have an opportunity to participate in a world community that respects their values and can be a vehicle for their aspirations. This is a world that young, idealistic, Islamic Iranians are fare more likely to want to join than the one perpetuated by GWB, where they perceived disrespect for their religion, values, and traditions and an us vs them resolution to the intrinsic conflicts between western liberal democracy and traditional Islamic lifestyle.

[pinky]

Let me get this straight, Livia......you think the Soviet Union, with its repressive government, midnight knocks on the door, persecution of Jews and other minorities, and its state-controlled media, was a good thing????

:greyno:

[Liviagray]

Let me get this straight, Livia......you think the Soviet Union, with its repressive government, midnight knocks on the door, persecution of Jews and other minorities, and its state-controlled media, was a good thing????

:greyno:

What you said sound so funny. Just like right away from US Anti-Soviet Propaganda. You don't lived in Soviet Union and you knew nothing about life in this country. I was born and raised in this country and I knew everything, you don't. Maybe for Americans, who knew Soviet Union just from US Anti-Soviet propaganda this country was bad, but for me who was raised their it wasn't. The years I lived in the Soviet Union was the best I have. I would not argue about Anti-Semites, but it was not that big and they was not violent. Just some verbal disrespect and nothing else. But ordinary people in Soviet Union have everything. Free education, free medical support, social security. Our education system was the best, that's why 70% from Soviet Union have a high education diploma. many of them was Doctors and Professors. All people have e secure jobs. Everyone could be whom they wanted. And most of all people lived in peace with all republics, belonged to USSR. We also have free municipal apartments. In Soviet Union I have my own apartment and my mother had hers. When my son was born I was paid for 3 years. I have my own small business there. Now I am unemployed and have nothing. Thanks God Israel have a good social system or I would not know how we would survived.
Our country had the best actors and actress and all movies which were done in Soviet Era still very much watchable and people still love them. The singers who became popular in Soviet Union are still popular today. I would not say our government didn't made mistakes, but what government didn't? People in USSR leaved in peace with each other. Now they fight and kill each other. Couple millions of people from post-Soviet countries just left and never returned. Millions people in Russian and Ukraine suffered and dead, because of this. The Mafia gangs took over businesses in Russia and Ukraine. It's horrible what happened to my country. Ukraine who lost so many people in WWII now praise Nazi and their Ukraine supporters Bandera. It's hard to understand. I would never return to the town where I was born and I have no attention to live their. What in the past was powerful country, became pathetic countries which can barely survive. And if you think this is better than what we had before, you are wrong. In Soviet Union many people dreamed to build Communism and they not even knew they already lived in Communism and was rudely awaken by Capitalistic reality. I am not against Capitalism, but I think each country needed to absorb it naturally. But people who wanted "changes" so much didn't think about anyone but themselves. They ruined country, ruined peoples life and now what? And now is nothing.
Just recently I found that Sweden have the same socialist social system and security as people in USSR have, and they have a pretty good life in this country.

[pinky]

Sweden also has a democratic government, not a totalitarian one.

So are you going to try to tell us that the USSR didn't control the media? That they didn't lie about Chernobyl? That you didn't have food shortages? That everyone, Party members and non-members alike, had the freedom to move around as they wanted?

Seriously?

[Liviagray]

Sweden also has a democratic government, not a totalitarian one.

So are you going to try to tell us that the USSR didn't control the media? That they didn't lie about Chernobyl? That you didn't have food shortages? That everyone, Party members and non-members alike, had the freedom to move around as they wanted?

Seriously?

No I would not say they didn't control the media or they didn't lie about Chernobyl. And this was a very big mistake and many people paid for this lie. But you know what? Most governments are lie to their citizens and people in USSR didn't cared about media that much. If you think we didn't go and vote you are wrong. We voted once in couple years. But again it was not political. Just not very big part of Soviet people was very much politicize. But for ordinary people who lived and was born after the Stalin was dead, life was good. People stopped to afraid and started to live. It was not dictatorship 100%. People was free to do whatever they wanted. Trust me Iranians or people who live in any country with dictators never have the good life like people in USSR. The life maybe was not rich, but simple, but people knew they would be always taken care off. people were smiling on the streets, the people was kind to each other and criminal situation was minimal. There was no hatred to each other. Georgia was the most welcoming and friendly Republic. The places in Kavkaz which now in war zone in the past was a big Resorts where people were spending their holidays. people worked the year and than they went to the sea on month holiday. Ukrainian didn't hated Russian and people from any USSR Republic was welcomed. We live like people in US which ancestors came from many different countries. Nobody hated anyone because of nationality. I would not idealize what really was happening under closed door of USSR Government, but trust me Bregnev era was the best in Soviet Union History. When he died I was sure that life would change, but I didn't know how much it would change. I would never leave my country if I could live in it and have future for my kid. In my opinion there was no future and judging to what now happening in Ukraine there would never be any good future for the kids in this country. It's not a country I was born, it's something completely different. Something ugly and stupid where people trying to survive one political crisis after another. Thanks God I leave it and raised my kid in a different environment. Now with all this peace process and Obama demands I don't know what future would be for Israel, but my son is responsible adult now and it would be his choice to choose how he wants to live his life and where? For me it doesn't matter. I don't know where this peace process will bring us, but I would pray to God that this will not end in the war. I hope he would listen to me. next time if you don't know the subject don't judge it according just to what you US propaganda telling you. You said USSR media was under controll, how about US media? Why US media always portraite USSR and their people like evils and country of dictatorship, when it was not like this. Why when Obama won ellection the whole media praise Obama and just couple of TV or radiostations post alternative point of view? You think your media is not under controll? Don't fool yourself. You media is most outrageouse liars in the world. They always lie or produce just one point of view. Your whole country under control now. Obama taking everything under goverment control, so don't you think it's sounds very much as dictatorship? Obama telling banks how to do their business. Obama selling a huge companies and takes the Health System under goverment control. And you think you live a free country? You are not.

[WannaBreatheYou]

Livia, seriously? You're one to talk about someone running their mouth about situations they know nothing about.

I suppose everything I was told about Russia from my former boss must have all been propaganda then, because he certainly didn't have the glowing things to say about Russia you have. Poor Sergei, buying into US propaganda regarding the country he was born, raised and served the military in. I should let him know he was duped by the US about his home country.

[pinky]

Livia, the difference between the media under Communist Party control and in the United States is that here, there is a choice about what to say. Fox News wouldn't have had a chance in the USSR; Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Pat Buchanan, and all the other conservatives would never have seen air time.

Writers here are permitted to publish books and papers critical of the government, without fear of being sent to the Gulag.

And, yes, late night comedians are permitted to make tasteless jokes about political figures and their families, without wondering if they'll be thrown in jail, sued, or fired from their jobs.

You talk about me being fooled by propaganda, but I would argue that you are the one fooling yourself.

Either that, or you're willing to pay for a bit of econonic security with your rights and freedoms. That's not a trade I'd be willing to make.

[Liviagray]

Livia, seriously? You're one to talk about someone running their mouth about situations they know nothing about.

I suppose everything I was told about Russia from my former boss must have all been propaganda then, because he certainly didn't have the glowing things to say about Russia you have. Poor Sergei, buying into US propaganda regarding the country he was born, raised and served the military in. I should let him know he was duped by the US about his home country.

I never speak about things i don't know about. Prove that what I said was wrong with facts. I don't know who your Sergei is and where he came from. I just told what I experienced myself. And trust me I could find a couple millions people who would say you the same things. First of all not all people in Soviet Union lived the same life. There were people who desperately wanted to leave Soviet Union, but they didn't have a permission. next people in USSR lived different life. Just because we lived under Communists party there still was people who were rich and people who wasn't. In general people in Soviet Union worked hard, but they were socially secured. Kids went to kindergarten, schools and than to high education. The medical service was for free. because of my bad health I spent long time i hospitals when I was a kid and when I was an adult. I never payed a cent for this treatments beside drugs in farmacy. The cost of drugs was really small, every one could afford them. There were many good things in Soviet Union, but people who live there were different. Some of them really fought with government, some of them was just embezzler robbers. They thought if they would rob government and not just people it would be okay. Maybe now what they did would be calling business, but than it was illegal. For example the brother of my close friend got 15 years in jail with no parole, for extracting gold from pens with gold feathers, like Parker. He sold this gold and used money. But it was illegal and he got all his possessions confiscated and went to jail. There were many people like him who spent the time for making private business by taken stuff from government factories or for cheating in their Accounting books and bills. Now all this people screaming that they got to jail for political and not criminal reasons.
I don't know your boss and I don't know how old he is and when he came to US. But being you I would be very careful with people from Russia, especially whit wealthy ones. You have no idea where their wealth come from and there are allot of people from Russian Mafia in USA who have legal businesses, but always doing something illegal by the side. I know people from Soviet Union, non of them could got a big money legally. For last 18 years many people became very rich very fast. I would not want to know where they got their money from. With Russian people the less you know about them the better.

[Liviagray]

Livia, the difference between the media under Communist Party control and in the United States is that here, there is a choice about what to say. Fox News wouldn't have had a chance in the USSR; Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Pat Buchanan, and all the other conservatives would never have seen air time.

Writers here are permitted to publish books and papers critical of the government, without fear of being sent to the Gulag.

And, yes, late night comedians are permitted to make tasteless jokes about political figures and their families, without wondering if they'll be thrown in jail, sued, or fired from their jobs.

You talk about me being fooled by propaganda, but I would argue that you are the one fooling yourself.

Either that, or you're willing to pay for a bit of econonic security with your rights and freedoms. That's not a trade I'd be willing to make.

And how I am fooling myself? I never believed much on any propaganda pro-Soviet or Anti-Soviet. I just loved to live in Soviet Union, but not because of their political views, but because of social security and better life. There were no forbidden rights in Soviet Union that I needed much. I didn't want to go live in other countries, I didn't want to fight for some rights I not even need. The freedom for me it's a social security, afordable or free medical care, education. The pension when I got too old and the safe secure world for my kid. If I could not go on the demonstration and scream bloody hell of political slogans I could live with it. if I could not see foreign news or music I could live with it. I already live it through in Soviet Union. I don't know what kind of rights or freedom you think you gained in USA? The freedom of speech or the freedom of lie? Of what freedom you are talking about if people in your country fought for couple hundreds years for Afro-Americans rights. In the beginning they fought to save them from slavery and than for make them equal to white people in USA. Now gay people fighting for the same rights and with no much success. If your country so free, why they can't gave gay people the same rights? On my opinion you are not very sure what kind of rights and freedom you are fighting for. The only rights I see in USA is to be killed by criminals on the streets, in your own home, in school or die unemployed and broke on the streets. You medical system is horrible. Sick people can't got help in time. The simple visit to family doctor is limited by insurance companies. Your young population is drug and alcohol addicted and many of them dying from overdose. Big part of American students siting on antidepressants, because they can't cope with real world. You know in country of free people didn't feel themselves secure and happy.
Not everyone in USSR was in Gulag and Gulag happened before my time (and I post in other post that after Staling death people felt themselves more free.) there were allot people who wrote the critical books and still alive. In Khrushchev era there were allot of Stalin critics and his body was taken away from mavzoley. And nobody was sent to Gulag. Gulag existed up to 1953 and after that there were no Gulag. People rebuild Soviet Union after the horrible war which took away 25 millions of Soviet people. I don't know when you family members got the first TV, but my mom bought it when she was pregnant with me (and I was born in 1955). We maybe was not rich, but we always have TV and some other things. By the way your country is not free of the same blames. Remember about McCarthyism era? or it was before your time and you don't know this part of your country history. McCarthyism was not much better than Gulag. many people was prosecute, arrested and some of them even execute. So don't tell me your country never Witch Hunting other people for their political views? Even now you and some people on this forum trash anyone who's political views are different. US is not much different than Soviet Union was. You just hiding everything under political freedom slogans, when in reality you have no freedom at all. You are not free to get a job or career you want. You are not free to get social security and medical care you want and need. You are not free do get an education you want. So what kind of freedom beside freedom of speech and demonstrate you have? People who always fight for somebodies rights loosing the real vision of their life. There is much more to live than for politics. For me my family is more important than any rights, freedom or politics. because politics lie and rights could be given and taken as easy as politics gave their promises. I was there, done that and would never do it anymore.

[WannaBreatheYou]

Livia, you talk about things in THIS country, one you've never lived in, like you know what's going on. But when someone else says anything about the Middle East or Russia, they shouldn't ever speak of such things because they don't know anything. Don't accuse others of what you do yourself.

My former boss, Sergei, lived in Russia for the first 30 years of his life, served in the Russian Army, and he didn't have all the wonderful, glowing things you've said about his former country, trust that.

[db44]

You tell us ofour deficit,the one Bush inherited...Which he didn't. And then when confronted with the facts, you said you didn't care about them. So don't tell us you don't talk about things you don't know about.

[pinky]

I can't even respond directly to Livia's last post, because it is so riddled with inaccuracies.

Did I ever say America is perfect? But Livia's view of America is so negative that I can't help but believe that she was, in fact, swayed by propaganda while living in her dream world, the USSR.

[db44]

As most everyone here knows, I do believe in the tennants of communism. That's in a financial ideology. I certainly do not believe in Communism, as in a totalitarian state.

Just in case anyone thought I accepted Livia's thoughts.

[Liviagray]

Livia, you talk about things in THIS country, one you've never lived in, like you know what's going on. But when someone else says anything about the Middle East or Russia, they shouldn't ever speak of such things because they don't know anything. Don't accuse others of what you do yourself.

My former boss, Sergei, lived in Russia for the first 30 years of his life, served in the Russian Army, and he didn't have all the wonderful, glowing things you've said about his former country, trust that.

I don't need to live in THis country to know what your country is all about. Americans are very opened people. They want to share everything. I watch news, I read books, magazines, I read tons of forums, I watch most of TV shows your country produce. If Americans didn't want to be judge by people from other countries they need to watch what image they have all around the world. But my opinion based not just on this things. You know I read allot and main authors I read are Americans. I also a part of many music, books fandoms so I have a glimpse in the real life this people have. I do some projects and I like to research everything, so I have a real facts about country you live in instead of using just some propaganda like many of you did. I read pages of people with different political opinions and news they post. I always like to read different opinions on some subjects. In the era of High Speed Internet there is no secrets about anything an less you live in the country like Iran and even from Iran people can get some information. Information is my business and I know how to get it. That's why I would never post something I have no facts to back myself up. I don't like liars and I never lie. And if my facts is not good enough for you it's not my fault.
I still don't know what to say about your boss. All man in my family served in the Soviet Army. My uncle was 17 when he go to army in 1941 and he fought Nazi up to Berlin. My brother served in the Soviet Army for 3 years and he was okay when he returned home. My 2 cousins and their friends served in the Soviet Army and also returned home and was pretty much okay. They never said anything bad about time in Army and when they came on Holidays they didn't look sad or scared. But all my siblings served in Soviet Army more than 35 years ago. They were all older than me. So I think in that time situation in Soviet Army was much better. Young people who served in Army in 80-s and 90-s got the worse part of it, because first it was a war in Afghanistan and than Chechnya. I bet it was not a best time to be in Army. And I know in this years there were allot of problems with bullies in Army and many people suffered. The problem is the Soviet Army is very strict about discipline, code dress, complete subordination of the senior rank. From what I saw in US Army TV series like
Jag it's the same in US Army. Not everyone like discipline or fight in the war.
I would not biased the opinion on the state which had 250 000 000 citizens on the opinion of just one person. People are different, they have different political views, moral norms and different view on what was good and what was bad in the country they lived before. For me my country was good, for him bad, probably because he took the things I remember as a good for granted, and he want to remember just a bad things that happened to him in Soviet Union. But if you knew Russian language and could visit Russian or Russian speak forums, you would see that many people from Soviet Union have a better opinion about Soviet Union than your boss have.

[Liviagray]

I can't even respond directly to Livia's last post, because it is so riddled with inaccuracies.

Did I ever say America is perfect? But Livia's view of America is so negative that I can't help but believe that she was, in fact, swayed by propaganda while living in her dream world, the USSR.

My view of America and Americans have nothing to do with my life in Soviet Union. When I lived there I didn't have any opinion on your country, beside the movies I watched and music I listened. I knew I like American Hollywood Musicals or Mysteries. I liked some actors and singers, but I never thought about America that much. It was not important to me. The best of all I knew singer and actor Dean Reed. You probably didn't even know who he is. he was American singer and he was a Communist. He was young, very cute and have amazing voice. He visited USSR very often and he lived in East Germany. He also was a decent person so his personality was bright and wholesome. It was a tragedy he died in the age of 40. His death was tragic and very suspicious. there is many version if he was dead from accident or he was killed, but nobody still knew the truth. My to days views of America biased on what I saw, read and witnessed for last 16 years.
To your knowledge I don't hate America, but I don't like that much things that America represent. I don't like to think that my life depend on the country which trying to force my country on something that can ruin it. I also don't like disrespect to the women your country represent. I don't like that Americans is too much politically obsessed, but can't discuss anything without insults. I don't like some arrogance and bad behaviour. I also didn't like that USA people divided by religious views, color of skin or sexual preferences. But I think I don't like the same things about people from any countries or states include soviet union or post-soviet countries. What I like about America, that you have many good writers, you have pretty good TV series and soaps. I like many actors and actress,musicians. I like that Americans like to share things like videos, music, books. There are allot of things about America I like. I like some places in US like Kentucky, Santa-Barbara, Montana, Main. there are allot of beautiful places in America I would want to visit. And I like Broadway allot. I would be happy to came to NY and go to Broadway to see couple shows. I also met many really decent people from USA which became my friends for many years.Your country is not responsible for the behaviour of her citizens so it would be stupid of me to hate the country for the things her citizens do.
If I posted some inaccuracies, please correct me with facts. There were allot talks how what I post is not true, but none of you proved that I really was wrong. It was just verbal accusation and nothing else. I am researcher and I prefer if someone want to prove me wrong they need to have real facts to back their opinions.

[Liviagray]

As most everyone here knows, I do believe in the tennants of communism. That's in a financial ideology. I certainly do not believe in Communism, as in a totalitarian state.

Just in case anyone thought I accepted Livia's thoughts.

Judging Communism you judging something you don't know. In idealistic way Communism was not about totalitarian state. It was opposite. The Idea of Communism was how all people could live together in peace without any hatred, discrimination, crime or abuse. In Communism Era every one would be equal, there would be no money, everything in malls and shops would be for free. People would work not because they need to, but because they want to, like they said:"To each according to their needs, and each will receive as much as his contribution to the community." I understand it was Utopical dreams, but people really believed that one day everything everywhere would be free and they worked hard to build this future. Nobody made them to do it. They did it on their own will. People had enthusiasm and beliefs that one day live would be much better. Sometimes people need something more than money. They need hope that one day their life or life their kids would be better. You maybe would be laughing, but many people in Soviet Union believed in this bright future. But when Soviet Union was destroyed their dreams about this future was destroyed as well. So Communism was not about the power of totalitar country. It was a power of better future, which probably would never came. But some very smart people used this dreams to build a totalitar country. Why do you think Communist Ideas never die? because there are allot of people still believe in this beautifully future and they want it now. But what they don't understand that to have this kind of future, people should be different. The things like greed, hatred, abuse, religious or racial differences should be gone and people should have higher moral norms than they have now. before people would not stop to hate and abuse each, other this future would be impossible.

[WannaBreatheYou]

Livia/Irene/whatever you're going to call yourself now, if you're going to do the EXACT THING you accuse others of doing (opening your mouth about a situation you know nothing about), do us all a favor and don't.

[pinky]

From what I saw in US Army TV series like
Jag it's the same in US Army. Not everyone like discipline or fight in the war.
See, you're basing much of what you think on fiction. To base your opinion of America on singers, television shows, and movies is very superficial. Even what you see on the news doesn't give you a true picture of life here, as the news reports many things because they are sensational, not because they are a true picture of what really goes on.

Beyond that, you say we haven't proven you wrong, and yet, when it's pointed out to you the fact that the federal deficit under George Bush (after he inherited a surplus from Bill Clinton) rose to the highest level ever, you dismiss it by saying that there were deficits before him. Nobody ever said there weren't! But Reagan and Bush increased the deficit, and therefore our national debt, to levels never seen before, all in the name of cutting taxes, but not reducing spending. That is a fact, no matter how you choose to interpret it. Proven wrong, you deny.

Yes, Obama has now increased the deficit even beyond that, but only because it was necessary in order to try to repair the damage done to the economy, partly by Bush, but also in part by the deregulation that happened under Clinton.

[db44]

Judging Communism you judging something you don't know. In idealistic way Communism was not about totalitarian state.

That's what I said. :rolleyes: I said idealistically, I am a stuanch supporter. I've said, many times in this forum and the faith and religion forum, that that's my belief, and why I do many of the things I do.

I added though that in the Soviet way, it was a totalitarian state, with freedoms taken away to impose it. That I do not support.

I believe, until there is an elightenment of our minds in general, communism can't work. Too many people are taken with the "dream" of Capitalism, that the perception they would have to give up what they earned scares them too much.

[oxymoron]

I believe that in theory communism is a superior moral system to capitalism. However, it is a less effective economic system and appears to lead to authoritarianism in practice.

[db44]

^ True dat. Unless people take a leap of faith (which is understandably a tough pill to swallow), they don't trust they will have what they need for the amount that they work. I don't think it'll be very tough to go from Capitalism to Communism once people have personal property. Communism doesn't mean the loss of property per se.

[oxymoron]

^I am not sure communism is consistent with human nature. It requires us to prioritize the whole over ourselves. At times, I have thought of morality as being how distantly an individual extends their concern for the well-being of others. Caring for oneself only is the lowest level. Then we can extend that to one's family, tribe, nation...In this theory, the ability to transcend tribalism and care for the entire species is a higher level of moral concern. The ability to transcend species and care for all living things would be an even higher level or moral concern.

Note: Flies are living creatures.

[db44]

I agree. But that's the way I feel: The needs of the many do indeed outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

[pinky]

We should all live long and prosper.

[WannaBreatheYou]

We should all live long and prosper.

Are you proposing we adopt the Vulcan government's style?

[pinky]

No, just responding to Dave's line from The Wrath of Khan.

Although replacing Rush Limbaugh's garbage with logic wouldn't be a bad thing. ;)

[lions1mew]

Ahh love the Star Trek references!

We must adapt to the situation at hand. Things have changed radically since the 1950s (which, in my humble opinion, the right-wing seems to think we should regress to) and new strategies, options, etc. should be given a chance to fix problems and help the majority instead of the minority.